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Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts

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« Reply #105 on: <09-30-10/2127:00> »
I wouldn't sweat it too much.  Cherry pick the maneuvers and abilities you like, and call it a day.  Mix up whatever you like from Wrestling and Krav Maga or Wildcat (to get a mixture of grappling and militant/brutal stuff), and go back to rolling dice and having fun.   ;D

There's no real way to get much of a "movement over strength" principle into play in a role playing game where so much of close combat is based on Strength.  In fact, I'll even go so far as to wager that that's not terribly far from real life, in that I'll bet most hardcore Systema guys are in pretty fantastic shape, whether their art claims to require it or not -- all else being equal, being stronger isn't going to hurt you in a fight (all else being equal, I said!). 

I wouldn't let the "not strength, movement!" bog you down.  Just chalk it up as something that's simplified for game purposes, and call it good.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #106 on: <10-01-10/0739:39> »
ok, this seems to be the correct thread to put this on.

can anyone help me put together rules for a style not covered in the books.

 The style is Systema. It is a real world technique of russian origin, focusing on close quarters combat (book describes this as clinch except the use of strength is against systemas core principles). Since it is a soldiers technique training runs the gamut from one on one to multi-opponent, both standing and groundwork, with and without weapons (emphasis on knife due to utility), and all of this done at a range where you literally are breathing in the other persons bad breath.

at this point this shouldn't be too difficult to put together, just pick one or two things to focus on and the rest is fluff. My challenge comes in my attempt to remain true to the core principles of the style, so there is one caveat. No technique, attack, assault, evasion or defence may employ strength. Everything is done through movement. Everything.
Wow it sounds somewhat like Wing Chun Do on it being an explosive devistating close in system. So that being said, a +1 hit mod as long as the Systema user has moved X number of meters before attacking (whatever works w/in a free action). +1 DV if clinched (or however its defined in SR rules maybe make a grapple check to activate?) +1 to-hit dice pool if weilding a knife. Negate bonus for defending v multiple attackers per rank of Systema (ie if 2 ranks in Systema, negate any multi enemy bonus v 1 or 2 attackers.

Do these sound appropriate to Systema?
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Usda Beph

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« Reply #107 on: <10-01-10/0830:53> »
I wouldn't sweat it too much.  Cherry pick the maneuvers and abilities you like, and call it a day.  Mix up whatever you like from Wrestling and Krav Maga or Wildcat (to get a mixture of grappling and militant/brutal stuff), and go back to rolling dice and having fun.   ;D

There's no real way to get much of a "movement over strength" principle into play in a role playing game where so much of close combat is based on Strength.  In fact, I'll even go so far as to wager that that's not terribly far from real life, in that I'll bet most hardcore Systema guys are in pretty fantastic shape, whether their art claims to require it or not -- all else being equal, being stronger isn't going to hurt you in a fight (all else being equal, I said!). 

I wouldn't let the "not strength, movement!" bog you down.  Just chalk it up as something that's simplified for game purposes, and call it good.
Crit, I'm a big strong guy. I know how to blast through a "static" defense by using my mass/strength fairly well. WCD being a soft style I had lots of "fun" having my power redirected with gentle wrist flick defenses. Most if not all, martial artists are in good cardio shape, however the smaller students had an easier time performing WCD than us bulls, why, because they didn't have to rethink how to apply their power. They didn't have any and yet because of the art they had it in boat loads.Vs Wing Chun Do being strong does hurt ALOT more! I have the bruises to prove it.
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« Reply #108 on: <10-01-10/1339:14> »
"All else being equal."  If you were getting casually brushed aside by gentle flicks of the wrist, your technique probably wasn't equal to theirs.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #109 on: <10-01-10/1415:11> »
"All else being equal."  If you were getting casually brushed aside by gentle flicks of the wrist, your technique probably wasn't equal to theirs.
Nope it's how the system works. I was trying to power the defenses and our fireplug of an assistant instructor crushed my "block". However when I snapped/flicked the technique correctly, his arm stopped like He hit a steel pole. There was no real brute power behind the technique like I was used to from other styles. but with the properly delivered flick... its like blocking with a support pole. Trust me it's in the experience, my words just cannot do the system justice.

One of the systems axiums is that for every direction of energy there is at least 3 other ways that energy wants to go and it doesn't take but a gentle nudge to make it alter course.
« Last Edit: <10-01-10/1417:49> by Usda Beph »
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Mach

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« Reply #110 on: <10-01-10/1504:47> »
USDA, I'd say the last bit about multi-attackers would be the most fitting. I've been in multiple lessons where my teacher took on five people at once (myself included), and made us look like a bunch of extras from a martial arts flick. Also your explanation of your experiences in wing chun do seem to resemble my own in systema (although my teacher often states it's actually extremely close to tai chi and often likes to prove it. hes got 20 years in tai chi and 12 in systema).

thanks for the help.

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« Reply #111 on: <10-01-10/1519:10> »
I'm just gonna assume I'm being somehow unclear, and call it a day. 

Mach

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« Reply #112 on: <10-01-10/1554:31> »
no crit, you made sense as far as gameplay, and that will most likely be the approach I take provided I can get that multi-opponent benefit. the part where you lost us was in the assumption of a large amount of strength being employed for the techniques. my own teacher is over sixty years old and is no hercules by any stretch of the imagination, yet this is the same teacher who can plow through five people like it was child's play.

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« Reply #113 on: <10-01-10/1624:29> »
Right, but those five people he plows through are -- obviously, since he's plowing through them -- obviously not his equals.  My point is, very specifically, that all else being equal, someone with greater strength will win a fight.  Just like, all else being equal, someone with greater speed would win a fight.  Or greater anything, if the two were completely equal in every other way.

There are techniques out there, and yes entire martial arts, that are built around not relying on strength.  But if you know those techniques, are a true master of them, are as expert in them as whoever it is you're fighting against, and have strength anyways, you've got an edge.  When you do X, it will be a little harder to stop.  When you do Y, it will be a little more damaging.  When you do Z, it will be a little harder to get free from.

I'm not saying strength is all that matters, but I am saying that strength can matter.  Every reputable fighting organization in the world breaks their matches down based on weight classes for a reason, y'know?  Bruce Lee worked out hard to add strength (not just speed, not just technique) to his toolbox for a reason.  I know about diverting a punch just enough to make it miss (though I did it with knife stabs, instead), about conserving power, about harnessing the incoming attack instead of stopping it...but I just can't buy it when someone says strength doesn't matter at all.

If you take two martial artists, of any art, who are otherwise exactly the same -- same skill level, same mental focus, same capacity to withstand discomfort, same speed, same experience, same reach, same everything -- and one is stronger than the other...he'll win.  He'll have the only edge in the fight, by definition.

Usda, even you said that your issues with WCD didn't come from your physical strength, it came from your mindset about that physical strength.  Being powerful wasn't your problem, having to "rethink how to apply that power" was.

At any rate, I think the whole thread's been derailed by someone picking out my one line of text, "all else being equal, being stronger isn't going to hurt you in a fight," and that wasn't my intent (which is why I tried to say "all else being equal" several times)...when I think we're in general agreement on how to stat up Systema for a Shadowrun game.

Angelone

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« Reply #114 on: <10-01-10/1844:15> »
Systema seems like an interesting martial art to learn, I'd love to learn it in fact. Of what I know I'd use the Set up, Multistrike, Disorient, Clinch, and Disarm manuvers to simulate it.
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Mach

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« Reply #115 on: <10-03-10/2118:02> »
in that case Ange, i'll add in a simple statement thats often taught to systema practitioners. "Don't fight to win, fight to survive." This one saying can open up a whole new set of opportunities in both game play and RL.

Glyph

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« Reply #116 on: <10-03-10/2248:54> »
It's ironic that in the Shadowrun rules, Strength doesn't  matter for blocking.  The huge troll may do more damage than the puny human, but for purposes of blocking, Agility and skill are all that matter - someone with a Strength of 1 can block the attacks of someone with a Strength of 10 with no problem whatsoever.

Usda Beph

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« Reply #117 on: <10-04-10/0759:53> »
It's ironic that in the Shadowrun rules, Strength doesn't  matter for blocking.  The huge troll may do more damage than the puny human, but for purposes of blocking, Agility and skill are all that matter - someone with a Strength of 1 can block the attacks of someone with a Strength of 10 with no problem whatsoever.
In a hard style you are right Glyph. I can out power most people (blocking)and few people can over power my blocks. In Wing a 115 girl/young lady can stop/deflect every one of my punches (280+ lbs). If I could see the darn punches coming I'm sure I could block 'em! ::)

With everything else being equal my power should crush through my instructors better speed, because I was/am far far stronger than him.
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« Reply #118 on: <10-04-10/1245:03> »
With everything else being equal my power should crush through my instructors better speed, because I was/am far far stronger than him.
That's kind of the point I'm trying to make -- the fact you describe them as your instructor means that their technique and knowledge are probably superior to yours, and you outright say they've got better speed.  That means there is no "everything else being equal."  See what I mean?

Usda Beph

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« Reply #119 on: <10-04-10/1327:06> »
A rooted rock has better speed than I do most the time LOL. It's why I relied on strength for so long. I learned I can take a hit ot two so I can bust some ribs, or a jaw most of the time, I am not going to test that theory in WCD cause I don't think my body will take a hit from a 200+ lbs sledgehammer (ie fist in WCD). :-\

I use the instructor cause well I have some of my favorite stories with him.

One of my favorites is when I got the "snap" right with a backfist. Then itt hit so hard it pulled Sifu off his feet and stretched his arm to the limit each time. He made an addendum to his previous statement to the class, "Ok Backfists are a stunning technique, unless Usda is delivering it!"
« Last Edit: <10-04-10/1332:55> by Usda Beph »
Yeah, I'm A Minotaur! You Gotta Beef with that?
I'm a Minotaur not a bully!
I studied at the Rocky Mountain Culinary School.I specialized in Seafood.
My Dad worked out of el Toro In New Mexico.