[SnackerBob]

The d20 system has been, for better or worse (definitely worse), the system that RPGs typically use. I hate it with a fiery passion, but people seem to like it for some reason.

I have a potential group of folks that would love to play the setting, but refuse to learn a system. How do you even combat this? It is hardhard to find interested players in my crappy  burg at my advanced age. And converting the gameplay to d20 is not remotely a possibility, and I hope you see why.

[firebug]

I'd be pretty upset if a group of my friends just flat-out refused to try a new system.  That'd be like saying you won't try a new boardgame because it's different than checkers, and you only play checkers.

The Shadowrun d6 system is really simple.  It's a dice pool system (as you know, not sure why I'm saying it) with the most complex rules maybe being stuff about magic spells or how glitching works.  If you could show your friends how basic it can be, maybe they'd be willing to give it a shot?

I'd try it like this.  Design a one-encounter "quick play" for them.  Similar to the SR5 Quick Start rules.  Don't use the actual quick-start rules though, because that thing was full of confusing holes.  May about five very basic characters and set up a scenario that's just one fight.  Make sure it includes a drone or turret for the hacker to deal with (likely by just marking it and then making it shoot the bad guys) and one enemy magician for the mage in the group to go toe-to-toe with.

For the characters, I'd suggest things like a simple Ork with high AGI and STR, a gun or two, and a sword.  A dwarf with a decent deck who's got high Logic along with Hacking and Cybercombat, just so he can mark the things you want in the encounter.  A Shaman and a Hermetic, the former with better summoning skill (maybe 6 as opposed to 4) and the latter with better Spellcasting.  Give them both fun but maybe not totally optomized spells, like Powerball or Lightning Bolt, then Heal and Increase Reflexes.  For a fifth sample character, I'd suggest either an Adept Face (who's still able to fight, just make it clear his abilities also help him with social) or a rigger with one big drone like a Steel Lynx with something over-the-top like a shotgun in it.  Or both, if you think your players will want to involve both of them.

The idea is that the characters don't have every single detail picked (they have lax gear, and you just kind of handwaved their skills) and can be run in a simple scenario where a fight is the objective.


If your group isn't even willing to try that, then...  I don't know what to say.

[SnackerBob]

I'd be pretty upset if a group of my friends just flat-out refused to try a new system.  That'd be like saying you won't try a new boardgame because it's different than checkers, and you only play checkers.

The Shadowrun d6 system is really simple.  It's a dice pool system (as you know, not sure why I'm saying it) with the most complex rules maybe being stuff about magic spells or how glitching works.  If you could show your friends how basic it can be, maybe they'd be willing to give it a shot?

Even outside of my current Podunk town in the future Ute Nation, I've encountered the same thing. I don't get it. Maybe because I grew up on Shadowrun and WoD, but I want a character that doesn't need a Feat in order to  be good at a thing. And I want life to threaten my PCs without needing to bring Demigods into it.
Thing is, nWoD works off a similar system (different dice, but whatevs), and they refuse that. Heck, they hate rolling 3d6 for GURPS! Out of 6 potential players, I've got 2 that are willing to even THINK about trying.
I'll definitely give your suggestions a go, though. Thanks for the advice, and we'll see how it goes.

Also, d20 is terrible.

[Mirikon]

The reason d20 is used so widely is because it is simple, and because it is the system used by the biggest, widest-known pen and paper RPG out there, D&D. Oh, and they basically provided the core system out there free to use as long as you gave them credit. Why reinvent the wheel when there's a wheel right there?

Having played systems both with and without the d20 system, I can say without a doubt that d20 is much simpler and easier to learn than Shadowrun is, especially this newest edition of Shadowrun. Roll 1d20, add your modifier, if you beat X, you succeed. Simple, and to the point. That core mechanic is what allows people to pick up on the basics of the d20 system so easily. Sure, the fine points take time, but the initial barrier to entry is low. Compare that to Shadowrun. Roll xd6, where x is the sum of attribute and skill plus any positive or negative modifiers, see how many 5s and 6s you got. Compare to your limit. Check the number of 1s to make sure bad things don't happen. If your hits beat the threshold/opponent's roll, you win.

Are there limitations to the d20 system? Sure. You can see this in the differences between Mutants and Masterminds and Hero System. One plays like a comic book, while the other is a tactical, gritty game, with a lot of resources to keep track of.

So I hate to break it to you, but for most people, especially people who just want to have a bit of fun, and not put the effort into learning a whole new system since that is like work and they get enough of that at, y'know, work, d20 is simple, easy, and to the point. Plus, they already know how to use it, and there are mods already in place allowing you to do pretty much anything with the system (d20 Future and Mutants and Masterminds being the best examples).

[firebug]

I think you're both overcomplicating d6 and oversimplifying d20.  Both are "gather up all your modifiers before the roll".  In d20, you are making an attack roll using your Strength, your Base Attack Bonus, any weapon modifiers, some situational modifiers, etc.  Just like in the d6 system.  Only the difference is each +1 is another die.  Limits as caps really can't be complicated to anyone used to playing games...  Besides, as has been stated, they're nearly never reached save for on weapons like pistols.

Glitching is really the main difference between a d6 system and a d20 system.  I'm not saying there's no learning involved, but it's kind of dumb to assume you don't have any kind of modifiers and that you don't have to do basic things like "combining an attribute and a skill" before rolling in a d20 system.

[Elektrycerze3]

I think you're both overcomplicating d6 and oversimplifying d20.

You can always roll a d20 without calculating every modifier. Then your experienced GM eyeballs the result (oh, a 7... No way he is hitting AC22).

So a novice can simply roll a d20 and hope for the best. No thinking involved =)

[Michael Chandra]

"I rolled a 1" vs "I rolled too many 1s". Not that big a difference. Especially not if you blacken out the 2s, 3s and 4s on your dice.

"You take your attribute + skill, subtract penalties which I can tell you about, roll and count how many 5s and 6s you got. If half or more are 1s bad things happen. You cannot keep more hits than your limit, but that rarely will happen so don't worry about that." <-- Roughly how I explained Shadowrun to a few players at Missions.

"What do I roll?" "You got Agility 8, Longarms 6, so that's 14 dice. The darkness is getting in the way so you subtract 3. Roll those. That's 5 hits, I rolled 3, you got 2 net hits. Your weapon is a Remington 950, it has 12P damage, we add the net hits for 14. I roll Body plus Armor and subtract 2+4 from your Remington's piercing and its APDS rounds. I scored 4 hits, so 10 damage remains. The opponent crashes into the ground and stops moving." <-- Roughly how the first roll of an inexperienced-Shadowrun player went with the character I had designed for him. After that he went "okay, so I still roll 11 dice, right? I got 3 hits."

It helps that I give them sets of 9 dice of the same color, easy to pick the right numbers

[Mirikon]

Especially since an experienced DM running for a novice player will make sure that their character sheet will have the total attack bonus of the, say, dagger they're using, and the damage written out. And you'll have skills and ability modifiers totaled up on the sheet. You tell them, roll 1d20 and add that, pointing to their sheet.

[Michael Chandra]

And it's the same for Shadowrun. There's character sheet formats that even let you write it down in an easy manner. + "Everyone, keep in mind that due to visibility vs all of you having Thermographic Vision, you all lose 3 dice on attacks."

[SnackerBob]

So, if any d20 proponents out there can write up a complete system for Shadowrun that isn't based on the Terrible Mutants and Masterminds system, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to play some Shadowrun without vomiting.

[Elektrycerze3]

So, if any d20 proponents out there can write up a complete system for Shadowrun that isn't based on the Terrible Mutants and Masterminds system, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to play some Shadowrun without vomiting.

What's the pay?

Try d20 Modern. It's OK. Dragons, Magic, weapons... And some duct-tape might get you Matrix support.

[Michael Chandra]

*shrugs* Find a d20 gamesystem that's close enough and simply convert the fluff. It's not real Shadowrun but it's enough of an emulation.

[Elektrycerze3]

*shrugs* Find a d20 gamesystem that's close enough and simply convert the fluff. It's not real Shadowrun but it's enough of an emulation.

Well, of course it won't be Shadowrun. It's just that sometimes people have to compromise. For the record, I'm disenchanted with d20, but hey, better a small fish than an empty dish.

[Michael Chandra]

I've played short campaigns in about 20 different gaming systems/editions in the past 9 years and only recently stopped participating in the short campaign cycles of my gaming club, because the gamedates tend to match my weekly homework deadline dates. I've played diceless, d20, d10, d6 and more. Even saw a d30 rolled once as pregnancy test. I don't really see why people find it bad to have to learn a new system, since you can always just go only after the simple part and learn more if you get interested.

[SnackerBob]

I'd rather an empty dish than to play any of the garbage d20 systems that I have ever read.

And I'd rather slap together some House Rules for an already functional system than create a Matrix rule system for other terrible systems.