Author Topic: 5E Questions and Issues  (Read 3256 times)

Typhus

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5E Questions and Issues
« on: (22:14:27/07-17-13) »
Hoi Chummers!

I just picked up the 5E PDF.  Decided I should probably join these boards too.

I've been playing SR since '91.  Mostly GMing, but playing too.  Pretty much have always loved each new edition more than the last.  If I have a game that I call "my game" SR is it.  Made a lot of friends through playing SR as well.  Big part of my life really.  Usually buy all the supplement books, though not adventures, as I prefer to make my own.  Still have a lot of the 1e/2e era adventures though. 

All that said as a disclaimer, I really want to like 5e...but I am having some trouble getting there as I read through it.  I'm hopeful that some insight from a lot of the folks on here that clearly are liking it might help me see the brighter side of the tree. 

Don't want to start ed wars or flame anybody.  5e was clearly a very big project, lots of effort and love, which I am glad of.  I am still reading through it, but I keep finding rules I either disagree with, wish were simpler, or just see no need for.  I want to like it, but need some help.  Anyone up for helping me out, feel free to jump in.  I'll post some questions and issues as I get them better formulated, and read more in detail.

Thanks in advance.

Typhus

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #1 on: (23:03:45/07-17-13) »
OK, just tripped over this one.  Starting Contacts cost Karma?

Upsides here?  I see the logic of it being a Karma cost, but at CharGen?  Can't count the number of starting characters in 4e that went contactless...this seems to exacerbate this possibility, since survival related costs would take priority for most players (myself included).  Contacts are a pretty crucial part of a character's ability to function, and contacts coming the very finite 25 starting Karma seems like its asking a lot of players to go here vs a Positive Quality.

I think I might just start a log of the things I find as I go through making a character.  I'm starting with a self-challenge: an Elven Decker.

Edit: went too fast.  Missed this:

 "Every character receives free Karma to spend on their initial contacts. This Karma is equal to a Character’s Charisma rating x 3"

Problem solved.  This works OK. 

« Last Edit: (23:05:38/07-17-13) by Typhus »

Typhus

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #2 on: (00:06:51/07-18-13) »
Taking a break after an hour.  Getting frustrated.  Info is very spread out, hard to find answers easily.  I've never stalled out this hard in SR CharGen before.  Some of it is new rules, but mostly its that info that logically belongs in certain places doesn't live there.  There a lot of places where things could be explained much more simply or streamlined.  Finding a few typos too, which doesn't help.  When I saw Lockpicking and Locksmith as separate skills on the skill chart, I had to laugh.  Gamed SR with a locksmith for many years.  I envision he would have facepalmed.  Skill section tells me that's a typo that got missed, since Lockpicking didn't appear to be there.  Glad of that.

After an hour, I have most of my skills active skills, attributes, Qualities, Contacts, and 5 extra Karma, which I am not sure if it will be useful from here.  Will have to wait until the weekend to properly major in The Matrix, so I know what I actually need, and can then go rebuild my character properly.   :P  ;D

As a frame of reference, I have made over 500+ SR characters in my time (I counted the stack once).  No rookie here.  To call it second nature is an understatement!   ;D

It's too bad the Character Concept section (page) doesn't have suggested skills listed.  It would be nice to know what my Decker needs to function in a summary format.  I defaulted to skill choices I needed in 4e, but a new player could easily overlook skills they would need if they go by the way things are laid out.  More build advice on archetypes, and more brevity in description of the build process itself would have been helpful, both as a veteran and thinking of new players at my table.   

Maybe I should be using the Quick Start rules?  Thoughts?  How was CharGen for you the first time?  Any tips? 

Crunch

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #3 on: (00:09:51/07-18-13) »
With a brand new player and nothing but a concept chargen in 5E took 30 minutes including gear.

My advice breath, stop deciding you hate it in advance and just go step by step. Its really really easy.

Typhus

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #4 on: (00:25:24/07-18-13) »
I don't feel I'm hating it in advance.  I was excited when I bought it, and I keep tripping over some things as I go along is all.  I'm actually here to try to be sure I am being fair to it.  I really want to like it.  If anything I'm too excited and skipping ahead.

It's not that it's hard as such, just see some places where it could be easier.  After 500 character builds, none are 'hard' really.  ;)  I got a bit lost trying skip ahead to where I thought I should be going, I will admit.  Your advice is that one must go in order the first time, OK.  Up to a point I was.  I'll go back.

What type of character did your player make, and was anyone helping them?  I did start potentially more complex, which may have been a mistake for a first attempt. 


Ryo

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #5 on: (00:33:16/07-18-13) »
Just read the character creation section from start to finish. The developers gave you step by step instructions, but you aren't actually reading them in order. That's your main mistake.

Just reading character creation all the way through, then hitting each thing step by step, I made my first character in about half an hour, same as Crunch. It really isn't that hard, and honestly, everything I've seen so far in 5e is a vast improvement over 4e.

Typhus

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #6 on: (00:37:07/07-18-13) »
When all else fails, read all the directions, eh?  Shut up for me.

Just encountered the fact that programs no longer have ratings.  That's pretty awesome, for sure.  Magic looked good too.  Out of time for tonight, will try again tomorrow.

raggedhalo

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #7 on: (05:01:53/07-18-13) »
I wonder if you're tripping up because you expect things to work in a particular way and they're not, and that's why it's not working so well for you?
Joe Rooney
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Mara

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #8 on: (06:09:18/07-18-13) »
Typhus, regarding the starting contacts costing Karma. Yes, they do...However, you have free points equal to
your Charisma x 3. If you are building a character that the concept is going to require a lot of points in Contacts?
Well...those ALWAYS had to choose something, no matter the edition you were in. However, you are guaranteed
at least 3 points in Contacts(though why anyone would take a 1 in Charisma is beyond me...I consider anything
lower then a 2 Charisma to be a "Deadman walking" because Etiquette is a life-or-death skill to have...)

Crunch

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #9 on: (18:03:21/07-18-13) »
I don't feel I'm hating it in advance.  I was excited when I bought it, and I keep tripping over some things as I go along is all.  I'm actually here to try to be sure I am being fair to it.  I really want to like it.  If anything I'm too excited and skipping ahead.

It's not that it's hard as such, just see some places where it could be easier.  After 500 character builds, none are 'hard' really.  ;)  I got a bit lost trying skip ahead to where I thought I should be going, I will admit.  Your advice is that one must go in order the first time, OK.  Up to a point I was.  I'll go back.

What type of character did your player make, and was anyone helping them?  I did start potentially more complex, which may have been a mistake for a first attempt.

I was stepping the player through it and he made a low resource mage.

Razhul

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #10 on: (19:18:18/07-18-13) »
For a Decker, go with what you know from SR4 and take into account that tests are now Logic + Skill and not Skill + Program anymore.

Attributes for solid decking are Willpower, Int and Logic (most of all, Logic!).

For skills, Data Search is gone and was merged into Computer. Rest is the same. You should have Hacking, Cybercombat, Elec Warfare, Hardware at least. Hardware is for repairing your Cyberdeck which is the primary receiver of damage in SR5.

Programs are tweaks and addons to your deck and dirt-cheap compared to SR4. In fact, you can buy all the hacking ones for less than 5000 Nuyen total.

Mara

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #11 on: (20:49:00/07-18-13) »
For a Decker, go with what you know from SR4 and take into account that tests are now Logic + Skill and not Skill + Program anymore.

Attributes for solid decking are Willpower, Int and Logic (most of all, Logic!).

For skills, Data Search is gone and was merged into Computer. Rest is the same. You should have Hacking, Cybercombat, Elec Warfare, Hardware at least. Hardware is for repairing your Cyberdeck which is the primary receiver of damage in SR5.

Programs are tweaks and addons to your deck and dirt-cheap compared to SR4. In fact, you can buy all the hacking ones for less than 5000 Nuyen total.

Big thing to remember, though, is that your Deck is the most expensive piece of gear your Decker will have. I recommend
no lower then priority C for Resources for a Decker. And most of THAT is going to be your Deck itself, before you even look
at programs. If you go to Priority D..almost all of it is going to be your bottom-rung deck. You cannot get a Deck at Priority E.

Crunch

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #12 on: (20:55:58/07-18-13) »

Big thing to remember, though, is that your Deck is the most expensive piece of gear your Decker will have. I recommend
no lower then priority C for Resources for a Decker. And most of THAT is going to be your Deck itself, before you even look
at programs. If you go to Priority D..almost all of it is going to be your bottom-rung deck. You cannot get a Deck at Priority E.

All true, although you don't HAVE to have a top of the line deck to be reasonable effective.

Mara

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #13 on: (21:06:01/07-18-13) »

Big thing to remember, though, is that your Deck is the most expensive piece of gear your Decker will have. I recommend
no lower then priority C for Resources for a Decker. And most of THAT is going to be your Deck itself, before you even look
at programs. If you go to Priority D..almost all of it is going to be your bottom-rung deck. You cannot get a Deck at Priority E.

All true, although you don't HAVE to have a top of the line deck to be reasonable effective.

No, you don't. But you do have to have a Deck, so Priority E is right out. If you go Priority D, you are already having to tap
into your Karma just to cover lifestyle and programs and armor and your side-arm and your Datajack and your fake SIN
and your Commlink that the fake SIN is linked to...that is ALOT to cover with just 20K Nuyen, especially as your Fake SIN
should be half of that(to be rating 4).

Going priority C means you can have a better Deck and still have nuyen for programs, etc. A means you are going to have
a top of the line Deck with programs, etc, but are going to have less skills then if you went A skills, B-C Resources.
Deckers definately want Priority A or B to be skills.

Typhus

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Re: 5E Questions and Issues
« Reply #14 on: (22:49:20/07-18-13) »
Thanks everyone.  So far (left over from last night) I went with:

Resources: A (due to deck costs, bought the Sony deck and all programs plus a data tap so far)
Attributes: B (20) - Maxed Logic and Intuition, Will 3, with Reaction 4, that gives me a meatspace/AR init of 10+1d6, occasional 2nd action even in meatspace is a win as a decker w/o reflex boosts.  Chose this priority that high because they set the Limits and having low stats here seems like giving yourself
Skills: C (28/2) - Tentative plan for a base of 4 in all six computer skills, with 4 + 2 group left to allocate for the support/rp stuff
Race: D (Elf-0) - "Edge shmedge" he said, hoping to live to regret it.
Magic: E - Duh.

Came out with Mental Limit 7 + 1 for indomitable Quality.
Physical + Social (before cyber): 5 each.

Feeling good about him overall so far.  Limits were worrisome as a concept to me at first glance, but with 4 hits still being a strong degree of success I feel okay with their outcome. 

Bought a 3/3 Fixer and a 2/1 Techie for contacts, plan to add some Karma to boost the techie slightly. 

Going to read up on the Matrix (which is so far is quite nicely written) and see what else is new.