Author Topic: [SR4a] BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know  (Read 48522 times)

emsquared

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #15 on: (12:45:57/03-12-13) »
Gear and Cyberware (minus Cyberlimbs, because I've never used them and have barely ever looked at them) are up.

nmap

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #16 on: (15:18:43/03-12-13) »
Thank you for this thread. I might not be much opitmizing person, but this thread is both very educational and very useful.

emsquared

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #17 on: (17:34:11/03-19-13) »
Foci and Bioware (minus Genetech and Nanoware) are up in Part 3!

Anything you guys feel that is missing in either the already posted sections or from the Future Plans?
« Last Edit: (17:41:53/03-19-13) by emsquared »

UmaroVI

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #18 on: (18:17:01/03-19-13) »
I think you're mixing up how augmented skill maxima work. Those are only for things that modify your skill rating, like Reflex Recorders and Improved Ability, not for things that give you a bonus to skill checks, like Tailored Pheremones or Synthacardium. Compare carefully what Synthacardium's entry says with what Reflex Recorder's entry says.

JUNK de LUXE

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #19 on: (16:56:33/04-02-13) »
looking forward for the next installment of this "Article" :P

emsquared

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #20 on: (14:59:31/04-03-13) »
Yeah, sorry, I've been occupied by some happy IRL goings-on, as well as our GM (who's never played SR4 as a player before) wants to be a player and I'm contemplating taking up the GMing scepter (and therefore kind of working on a campaign and run ideas).

But anyway, the next installment is up - covering Genetech, Cyberlimbs, and Qualities from the SR4A Core.

Bewilderbeast

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #21 on: (20:41:48/04-03-13) »
Glad to see you're continuing work on this. You should probably mention that Adapsin is not available at character creation, though, which sort of greatly limits its use (in my opinion). Augmentation is pretty clear that it's not intended for character creation.
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emsquared

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #22 on: (11:35:36/04-04-13) »
You should probably mention that Adapsin is not available at character creation, though, which sort of greatly limits its use (in my opinion). Augmentation is pretty clear that it's not intended for character creation.
Interesting, I didn't catch that. I'm largely working from a spreadsheet that I created summarizing each bit of 'ware, and that was something I didn't put in my comments (which is also why I miss some things like what is a dice pool modifier and what is a skill rating modifier). Good catch, Bewilderbeast, thanks!
« Last Edit: (11:41:28/04-04-13) by emsquared »

Fedifensor

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #23 on: (23:59:36/04-09-13) »
The thread has some great material.  However, I think there is a bit too much emphasis on Nuyen-purchased options over Positive Qualities.  An example is Exceptional Attribute.  Sure, you could get Genetic Optimization instead...but that's 40,000 less you have to spend on Cyberware during character generation.  If the cash flow is low in the game, where you're barely making enough to afford your lifestyle, then Exceptional Attribute becomes a much better deal.  Availability also becomes a factor...unless you've spent sufficient points on Contacts (which is a Build Point cost not factored into the calculations).

Likewise, if post-chargen Nuyen gains are a factor, you should take a look at Trust Fund.  Sure, it requires a SIN and 10/20 BP, but that's 5000 per month you're not spending on Lifestyle.  The downsides can be partially negated by Erased, and the upside is an extra 66k/132k a year (assuming you would have bought Medium/High lifestyle). for implants and other gear.

The one other comment I would make is regarding High Pain Threshold.  Damage Compensator may seem like a better option...but it doesn't work with a Trauma Damper, while High Pain Threshold does.  High Pain Threshold + Trauma Damper + Platelet Factories can keep a character at fighting effectiveness despite grievous wounds.

emsquared

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #24 on: (09:47:11/04-10-13) »
I think there is a bit too much emphasis on Nuyen-purchased options over Positive Qualities.
...
 If the cash flow is low in the game, where you're barely making enough to afford your lifestyle, then Exceptional Attribute becomes a much better deal.  Availability also becomes a factor...unless you've spent sufficient points on Contacts (which is a Build Point cost not factored into the calculations).
...
Likewise, if post-chargen Nuyen gains are a factor, you should take a look at Trust Fund.
As the initial post states, the purpose of this guide is to show how to optimize post-chargen Karma efficiency.

There are some assumptions that go with that, that may not always be true, but they are necessary for continuity of the post. In my experience, Karma is the limiting factor for advancement of my PCs - money comes easy, Karma slow. This isn't always the case for all tables or all builds, but that is the premise that this guide operates under and will approach all issues, period. If you have different priorities it is your responsibility to be aware of how they interact with BP chargen. It will not be addressed here.
Damage Compensator may seem like a better option...but it doesn't work with a Trauma Damper, while High Pain Threshold does.  High Pain Threshold + Trauma Damper + Platelet Factories can keep a character at fighting effectiveness despite grievous wounds.
Sure. But this guide is not addressing single combinations of 'ware, much less every possible combination of multiple pieces of 'ware. Not only that, but it is limited to 'ware that emulates (or at least nearly so) direct BP/Karma translatable purchases, due to the base premise (see above). Trauma Damper and Platelet Factories are outside of that realm, and are also therefore not addressed. Dermal plating and Bone Density Augs are not addressed as you don't purchase armor with Karma. Can't and not going to try to cover everything in relation to everything.

Thrass

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #25 on: (08:02:47/05-10-13) »
a level 3 skillwire (availability 12) costs 6k Nuyen which is 1.2 BP and 0.6 Essence
that gives you access to 6 slots of skillsoft, filling a slot is 2BP

You can thus get  6 rating 1 skills for 13.2BP at chargen
as opposed to  6*4 = 24BP
24/13.2 is  a ratio of 1.8

not taking 6 skills at rating 1? yeah sure it scales down gracefully
you need 2 skills at rating 1 at chargen because... you just need to?

2k nuyen (0.4bp)
plus 4bp for 2 skillsofts means 4.4bp for 2 rating 1 skillsofts instead of 2*4=8BP
puts us at 8/4.4 which is the exactly same 1.8 ratio

for those rating 1 skills it is always an 1.8 ratio if you are buying them in an even amount

lets factor in ess-karma and everything...

you are paying 11.000Nuyen per rating 1 skill (upt o 6) which is 2.2 BP 2  0.5BP for essence per skill this means you actually pay 2.7BP / 5.4 karma per skill at rating 1
it is still strictly worse then buying with karma later, but way better then buying them with BP

I think you should factor this into your guide

also maybe factor in personalized skillsoft, which basically means:
a level 3 skillwire (availability 12) costs 6k Nuyen which is 2.4 karma and 0.6 Essence which is 12 karma
plus 62.000 nuyen for 2 activesofts  rating 3(4) which is 24.8 karma which brings us to 39.2 karma for 2 rating 4 skills as opposed to: 48 post chargen karma

oh? all of a sudden skillwires net karma?
guess what... we can push that further...
for 2k nuyen we can add pluscode to all the programs...
that means for little extra cost we can put 6 skills in there !

a level 3 skillwire (availability 12) costs 6k Nuyen which is 2.4 karma and 0.6 Essence which is 12 karma
plus 33.000 nuyen per activesofts rating 3(4)  with pluscode 2 which is 13.2 karma
for 6 skills that means 79.2 karma for software and 2.4 karma for the ware and 12 karma for the essence this sums up to
93.6 karma for 6 rating 4 skills opposed to 144 karma
we save over 50 karma.... /25BP

a mage with magic 5 would be better of getting this and hardcapping his magic

although, you are kinda maxing out on money expenses ;)

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UmaroVI

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #26 on: (10:10:05/05-10-13) »
Yeah, that's the main issue with skillsofts at chargen - you need the money for other stuff that saves you even more karma.

The best way to use skillsofts IMO is Move By Wire. MBW 2 is good even without the skillsofts.

Thrass

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #27 on: (15:51:52/05-10-13) »
Yeah but ruling skill wires out is just not gonna make it in a karma efficiency thread it is a useful option if only for a limited set of builds and characters that aren't capped at bp to nuyen
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Glyph

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #28 on: (22:05:41/05-10-13) »
Exceptional Attribute is one of the least effective ways to improve the maximum of an Attribute.

SURGE II with metagenetic improvement: Attribute costs half as much, at the expense of 10 points of negative metagenetic qualities (which can be purely cosmetic unless you are purposely gimping yourself), and it doesn't merely raise the Attribute maximum, but gives you an actual Attribute point as well.

Buying genetic optimization: Attribute costs 11 BP less (1 BP less than SURGE II), and a small amount of Essense.  It cuts into your starting resources, but not the 35 point limit on positive qualities, so it is a matter of which is more of an opportunity cost to you.

You also have the option of getting it with the genetic heritage quality, which costs 1 BP more, but shifts the opportunity cost from starting resources to positive qualities.  It also has the potential to save you more in resources if you get other genetic enhancements (which get a 20% discount).

emsquared

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Re: BP Character Generation: the Math You Really Should Know
« Reply #29 on: (22:36:22/05-10-13) »
Yeah but ruling skill wires out is just not gonna make it in a karma efficiency thread it is a useful option if only for a limited set of builds and characters that aren't capped at bp to nuyen
No one is ruling Skillwires out but me, it's simply a recommendation. They are cost prohibitive, this is a fact. It's my personal opinion that they're "really" not worth investing in at Char-gen, because in general it's more efficient to invest in your attributes that your Skill are grouped around at Chargen. But ultimately this whole thread is just my opinion, with some math thrown in. You take exception with some of it, that's fine. Your contribution is most definitely appreciated and it will be here for all to read, but I'm not gonna change my recommendation in the body.
Exceptional Attribute is one of the least effective ways to improve the maximum of an Attribute.

SURGE II with metagenetic improvement: Attribute costs half as much, at the expense of 10 points of negative metagenetic qualities (which can be purely cosmetic unless you are purposely gimping yourself), and it doesn't merely raise the Attribute maximum, but gives you an actual Attribute point as well.

Buying genetic optimization: Attribute costs 11 BP less (1 BP less than SURGE II), and a small amount of Essense.  It cuts into your starting resources, but not the 35 point limit on positive qualities, so it is a matter of which is more of an opportunity cost to you.

You also have the option of getting it with the genetic heritage quality, which costs 1 BP more, but shifts the opportunity cost from starting resources to positive qualities.  It also has the potential to save you more in resources if you get other genetic enhancements (which get a 20% discount).
Dunno if you've bothered to read the thread, Glyph, but I've already covered all of this (minus the Genetic Heritage bit because it is not within the scope of my topic).
« Last Edit: (22:39:19/05-10-13) by emsquared »