Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: PauloAM on <05-10-17/1625:25>

Title: Matrix House Rules
Post by: PauloAM on <05-10-17/1625:25>
Hello to you people!

I'm thinking about two house rules and want to find out if they would unbalance the game:

a) Making the Matrix a 1:1 representation of the meat world.
     In AR, the decker would see the icons of hackable devices on his overlay vision (unless running silent).
     In VR it would function pretty much like Astral Projection, seeing the environment greyed out, and devices glowing.

b) Making Matrix Perception as a kind of "sonar pulse" in a 100m radius. The player would make one test, and all devices running silent would have to resist the same amout of hits to stay hidden.
    I thought about this because the current rules seem so boring  and restricting, making the player roll a million tests to spot everything...

So, don't mind any technical explanation as to WHY things would function like that, I just want them to because they seem cooler gameplay wise. The question is: how do you think they would unbalance the game, and if so, suggestions about how to rebalance it...

Hope I'm not asking much, and thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: &#24525; on <05-11-17/1630:39>
I think the problem with VR projection is dealing with hosts, as they neither have a physical location or maintain the same "volume". I guess you could have floating "clouds" above the PC with tardis like qualities.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: PauloAM on <05-11-17/2212:30>
What about b?
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-12-17/0559:55>
In my games I use a somewhat limited version of what you're talking about. Your (a) for example is half-used. I allow deckers to effectively point at a target and say "What devices does he have?" (Matrix Perception). They automatically see all devices not running silent and hits on the Matrix Perception gives them details about the device(s). If the person has something running silent, that same Matrix Perception is opposed by the Silent roll to see if they notice the Silent device. In effect, this is utilizing the fact that a device's location could essentially be used as one of the "identifiers" that you need to have to spot specific devices.

However, I don't allow trying to navigate the real world via a sort of "Matrix Projection." That sort of detail would require information that hacking is required to retrieve. It would effectively negate the Trace Icon action, and make it extremely difficult to do any sort of Hacking without getting caught. Imagine if someone that spotted your Icon could just know where you were hacking from with a simple Matrix Perception...


As for (b), I don't let a single Matrix Perception hit every device all at once, but I do allow for "grouped" information to be gathered using Thresholds rather than expecting roll after roll for identifying each and every little device. For example, the Decker is looking over the room and wants to know what sort of weapons that the opposition is carrying. I use the examples for Perception to help out with the sort of thresholds you might like, I just alter them for a Matrix perspective.

1 hit - There are 4 other people in the room, they have commlinks running with attached device icons.
2 hits - 3 of the devices are lower end Sensei commlinks with some attached periferals. The other one is running a higher end Erika Elite.
3 hits - All of them are carrying Pistols (you notice the weapon icons among their devices), the other devices could be smartlinks.
4 hits - The three guys are definitely using Ares Predators (their gun icon is second nature), and you think the tomahawk on the fourth persona means they're carrying a Ruger Super Warhawk.
5 hits - The three guys with Predators have attached smartlink systems (probably their sunglasses). But your realize the guy with the Ruger isn't using a Smartlink, his just has the advanced range finder and a laser sight.

Something like that...
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: PauloAM on <05-12-17/0951:49>
I see, like devising "layers" of perception right? With 1 hit you get commlinks, and then goes up the ladder until finding cyberware.

And i also got your point about "matrix projection" being overpower, I guess it would be...but the thing about knowing the physical location seems enough for me, so if a Decker can see a security camera running silent, he can try to "Matrix Perceive" it right away. It's better than seeing the camera and then hoping to randomly find it in the Matrix.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-12-17/2116:03>
So, verbatim, in the rules "If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon" that's the third from the bottom option on the Matrix Perception sidebar on page 235. Using that, I ruled that knowing the physical location of the device counts as a "feature" for that purpose. Therefore, being able to physically see a device lets you attempt to spot that specific device even if they're running Silent.

I just don't allow it to work in reverse, just because you can see the devices' icons doesn't mean you know where they are physically. Like I said, that's what Trace Icon is for. If they can't physically see the devices, I only give them a rough direction for things. They know which way the signal is coming from, but not how far.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: PauloAM on <05-12-17/2206:15>
Yes it all make sense, I'm gonna run it like you do.

Since we're talking about Matrix, I was reading the chapter again, and on the topic of matrix damage I got a doubt. If I brick a firearm, does it stop shooting? I'm asking this because on page 228 it states that "The firing pin on an assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just fine for stabbing smug hackers."  Are they implying that a bricked assault rifle cannot shoot anymore? That doesn't make sense to me, because the firing of the gun is mechanical in nature, not electronic, therefore things like smartgun systems should stop working, but the firing mechanism should be fine...
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-13-17/0144:27>
I would say that is based on the weapon. A gun with an integrated Smartgun System might  be more vulnerable to being completely slagged when it is bricked via the Matrix. While one with an external smartlink would just fry the circuits that give a bonus.

That's probably the line that I would draw, internal smartlinks make the weapon vulnerable to being completely unworkable if hacked.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: PauloAM on <05-13-17/1959:51>
Hm... I'll give it a thought...

You're being really helpful btw!

Here's another one: does the Wired Reflexes augmentation boost the initiative of someone who is in VR? What about spells and drugs?
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: PauloAM on <05-13-17/2022:55>
Sorry, but i have yet another one!

It says in the book that when I fail  a Sleaze action against a device, said device alerts its owner. Ok.
What if I fail a Sleaze action against a security camera who's slaved to a Host? Who's the camera's owner? Is it the Spider? What if there is no Spider? Who will know about my failed action?

Thanks for all the help!
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-14-17/0535:57>
I like helping where I can, clarifying rules and taking part in interpretation questions is one of the ways that I work to improve the Shadowrun community.

As far as Wired Reflexes goes, my ruling has always been No. Ditto for the others. Basically, all those things affect the character's Physical Initiative, which is handled separately from the Matrix Initiative.

If you want to increase your Matrix Initiative Dice, there is a modification in Data Trails called the Multidimensional Coprocessor which gives you one more die, that plus going Hot-Sim will bump you up to the maximum 5 dice.


The owner of a slaved device in that case would be the Host. It would get alerted to potential intrusion and go on alert. Depending on the host, the response could be different. Generally, when I'm contemplating the Host's response I take into consideration things like the availability of a Security Spider, what sort of IC it runs, and of course what sort of host it is.

The Host at a local Stuffer Shack, for example, might queue up a bunch of IC to try and ward off against intrusion, but if it doesn't find anyone (if you haven't entered the host) it might calm back down after a few minutes. It would also probably alert the physical staff on-site to look for potential hackers, if you're hacking a security camera it means that you're either in the host already or you're direct connected.

The Host of a company might set the building security on alert as well, although it might wait for a security spider to make that call. Many Hosts probably see many attempts to hack them over the course of time, most are probably simple hit-and-runs that don't get past the initial attempts to get Marks.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Stoneglobe on <05-14-17/0545:12>
Any physical initiative boosting ware whether it be bio/cyberware. magic or drugs have no effect in VR, as they effect the physical body, but will in AR. Those that boost the mental attributes will have full effect in VR, both for skill rolls and initiative.

In terms of failed sleaze actions, not only do they notify the owner, they also place a mark upon the decker/technomancer. The exact quote is:

Quote
If you fail a Sleaze action, the target’s Firewall software detects the intrusion and places a mark on you. A device immediately informs its owner, a host launches IC. If the target already has three marks on you, it doesn’t get another, but it still does the informing and launching.

p231 CRB


So basically the host gets a mark upon you, with all the problems that gives, and immediately begins to launch IC in whatever order it has been programmed to. Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Stoneglobe on <05-14-17/0547:59>
And Kiirnodel beat me to it which is why I cut my post back down as he covered all of the other bits I wanted to cover
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: PauloAM on <05-14-17/0936:39>
Thanks for all the help guys  8)
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: &#24525; on <05-14-17/1537:22>
if you're hacking a security camera it means that you're either in the host already or you're direct connected.
Is that to say that a device slaved to a Host is inside said Host?
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-14-17/2140:05>
if you're hacking a security camera it means that you're either in the host already or you're direct connected.
Is that to say that a device slaved to a Host is inside said Host?

Based on what I remember, and I might be remembering wrong, devices slaved to a host don't have icons on the grid. The only way to hack them would be through the host, or by direct connection.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-15-17/0035:28>
That's wrong:
Slaving does absolutely nothing to move the device from the grid. Entering a host is an action that requires a mark on the host so a device without a pilot, agent or other persona can't perform it.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-15-17/0157:31>
Well, first up, entering a host is something that personas do. I never said that devices take actions to "enter" a host. I said that devices slaved to the host exist on the host. You're right that devices can't just enter the host, but that's like saying that devices can't perform the action to become slaved... not really the same thing.

I was basing my statement on the following:

Quote from: Core Rulebook Page 246; Hosts par. 2
The virtual space inside a host is separate from the outside grid. When you’re outside of a host, you can’t interact directly with icons inside it, although you can still send messages, make commcalls, and that sort of thing. Once you’re inside, you can see and interact with icons inside the host, but not outside (with the same caveat for messages, calls, etc.).
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-15-17/0325:00>
Yeah, but nowhere does it say the camera icon is in the host if slaved to it.
Slaving does not change the location of an icon. It merely benefits from the masters defense stats.
You might be able to see the files a camera sends to the host and edit them, but the camera itself is not in the host.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-15-17/0532:17>
There are different interpretations. This one is going off of the concept that items slaved to a host become icons on that host. Otherwise, for example, a host would be unable to perform control device actions on the devices slaved to it. Meaning the whole idea of hacking into a building's host to take control of the doors would be impossible.

I know that I'm not the only one who has come to that conclusion, as I didn't come up with it myself. And I'm not entirely certain I like that interpretation either. Personally, I liked the idea of having "Home Nodes" much better. The idea that each and every corporate building has its own host seems a little over-the-top.

I think, having a mid-range between commlinks/cyberdecks and Hosts would make more sense. Something that is more powerful than a commlink/cyberdeck (depending on quality) but isn't mobile would work fine. In 4th edition, they were called a nexus. They wouldn't have the complete autonomy of a host, but they would be something tied to a specific location. The Core rules contradict themselves in many ways, simultaneously saying that Hosts have no physical location but then saying that they could be tied to a physical location.

Sorry, went a little off-topic there...
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-15-17/0727:49>
But it's an interesting topic...  ;D

This interpretation hinges on a misconception.

The rules text for WANs is:
"There are also wide area networks, or WANs, with multiple devices slaved to a host. A host can have a practically unlimited number of devices slaved to it, but because of the direct connection hack you rarely see more devices than can be protected physically. If you are in a host that has a WAN, you are considered directly connected to all devices in the WAN."

Just because you can't interact with the regular matrix from inside the host doesn't mean the host can't. Being in the host allows you to access it's WAN devices (which incidentally means that no public access host may ever have any devices slaved to it) - this is an exception from the normal rule that you can't interact with the rest of the matrix. It does not force the conclusion that all device icons slaved to the host have to be inside the host.

Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-15-17/1649:10>
You've made a pretty large assumption that there's an exception to that rule, but that isn't ever stated anywhere.

And why can't public access hosts have slaved devices?
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-15-17/1701:20>
Specific trumps general: The rules text explicitly tells you that you have a direct connection to all slaved devices if you are within the host. Direct connections allow you to stay in contact with and command a device that is outside a host even while you are in the host.

A public host is accessible by the public aka everybody. Any visitor to the host of your local pub would suddenly be able to control all slaved kitchen appliances with minimal effort.
Banking hosts would allow you to open door locks and shut off cameras, etc. (In my games I solve this by using dedicated security hosts that only authorized personal is allowed to enter, while public hosts have at best files containing advertising and entertainment.)
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Kiirnodel on <05-15-17/1855:32>
So, not can't, more like shouldn't.

A public host that is a club that let's the visitors play around with the lights, or send requests to the auto-dj is totally do-able.
Title: Re: Matrix House Rules
Post by: Jack_Spade on <05-16-17/0257:36>
Yeah, I meant "may not" as in "dangerous if you do".

The inability to compartmentalize hosts is really something the rules writers should have tackled from the start (that was something all other versions in the matrix in previous editions did well - sometime even too well)