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Shadowrun 4E and Earthdawn connections?

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Longshot23

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« Reply #75 on: <05-18-12/0511:34> »
They got one after the assassination of Juan Azcatpo-whatever . . . the public line is 'executed for terrorism/treason', but this is Azzie . . .

Sichr

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« Reply #76 on: <05-18-12/0525:25> »
In fact, I always thought that Azies are using Theran magic, you know, that which their Behemots flying...am I wrong?
Since Ive seen this debate about Bad/Good Blood magic and even Dragons schism about its use...and now IDN if Azies got their magic from Thera, or they have their magic from one of those feathered dragons...

Mirikon

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« Reply #77 on: <05-18-12/0740:50> »
If there was anyone who was heir to the magical legacies of the Therans, it would be the Black Lodge, I think. I would bet that Aztlan got their blood magic know-how from the feathered serpents in the area, the ones who believed in doing Death magic back in the Fourth World. The other side of that divide would be the feathered serpents following Hualpa.

The corrupted eastern dragon mentioned in the Aztlan sourcebook is most likely the Smoking Mirror, who is the real power behind Aztechnology's blood mage cabal these days.

As far as the Outcast's progeny, if they did not become the Black Lodge, then I could see their purpose shifting, so that they became the dragonslayer groups operating during the downtime.
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Nath

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« Reply #78 on: <05-18-12/1047:59> »
If there was anyone who was heir to the magical legacies of the Therans, it would be the Black Lodge, I think.
Threats does suggest the Black Lodge Penultimate Master is an immortal human, and the only other known case of immortal human is the Denairastas Clan. Etymology also suggest theirwuld be an Ultimate Master somewhere, which could be the Outcast.

Loose Alliances, pages 104-105, hints at a link between the Black Lodge and the Vigilia Evangelica. The Black Lodge knowledge would come from materials stolen in the a abbey during the Middle Ages. Peter Taylor intended that part to be clearly explained in Game Information, but that was cut out (he released the text online later, thus as non-official material).

Note the two are not mutually exclusive. The Denairastas may have helped create and infiltrated the Vatican, and then stealing things from their vault.

raggedhalo

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« Reply #79 on: <05-21-12/0910:06> »
Not sure if this link has been posted already - the material Nath references.
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IKerensky

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« Reply #80 on: <05-24-12/1229:20> »
Dunk awoke in Colorado. He later took up primary residence in Canada. One would assume it's for similar reasons as to why Ghostwalker and Hestaby now reside in North America. Dunk and GW were the most powerful Barsaivan greats, so ...

It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"

If you read the Thera Empire from Earthdawn you will see that Thera/Atlantis had colonies in the Americas, even more you can deduce they are planning to use Locus and other place of power to maintain a certain level of magic during down-cycle to keep in power.

For me the late 4th age saw a conflagration between Thera and the IE and Dragons, IE and Dragons probably uniting (on Aine incite ?) against Theran to stop their scheme wich in fact could have helped the Horrors too to maintain a bridge during 5th World down-cycle.

Then the Dragons AND IE maintain a presence in the area to keep an eye on the situation. It is also possible that the destruction of the Locus produce an rapid chain reaction that sunk Thera and lower the magic level so fast Dragons were trapped far away from their usual lair and had to adapt fast.

I can also see the IE being divided between supporting Thera and fighting Dragons and supporting Dragons against Thera. That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).

Aria

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« Reply #81 on: <05-24-12/1723:33> »
That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
I thought Tir nA nOg was the legacy of the Blood Wood, not anything to do with the Therans???
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Nath

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« Reply #82 on: <05-24-12/1830:54> »
Then the Dragons AND IE maintain a presence in the area to keep an eye on the situation. It is also possible that the destruction of the Locus produce an rapid chain reaction that sunk Thera and lower the magic level so fast Dragons were trapped far away from their usual lair and had to adapt fast.
What Ghostwalker said and did when he returned to Denver area suggest he vowed somehow to protect the area from corruption (and by 2061, Aztechnology presence qualifies). So that rather looks like a willing choice to stay or at least visit regularly. Ends up Ghostwalker was trapped elsewhere all that time anyway.
« Last Edit: <05-25-12/1612:49> by Nath »

IKerensky

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« Reply #83 on: <05-25-12/0419:25> »
That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).
I thought Tir nA nOg was the legacy of the Blood Wood, not anything to do with the Therans???

The Blood Wood in the late ED time is on the verge of collapsing into itself, the Wood is nearly out of control and the Court is going to lose Elven support as Shosara and Serethea are asking for it to move away. If you consider that Thera was formed from BW/WW expatriates then it is possible that to counterbalance the rise of secondary elvish court, Alacchia reluctantly accept an alliance of sort with Thera (wich experience in Blood magic is quite strong and could have helped with the Heart of the Wood problem).

We have no real idea on how long between ED time and real end of the 4th world, probably a mere centuries, I dont think a millenium. ED is the dusk of the Magic 4th world wich is artificially prolongued and the dawn of the 5th world. (Totally reverse position with Shadowrun wich is the dawn of the 6th World).

P.S. Sorry for the name spelling doing all that from memory.

Sichr

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« Reply #84 on: <05-25-12/0502:46> »
Dunk awoke in Colorado. He later took up primary residence in Canada. One would assume it's for similar reasons as to why Ghostwalker and Hestaby now reside in North America. Dunk and GW were the most powerful Barsaivan greats, so ...

It's in the same category of unanswered questions as "Why did a bunch of immortals decide to establish their new country in friggin' Oregon?"

If you read the Thera Empire from Earthdawn you will see that Thera/Atlantis had colonies in the Americas, even more you can deduce they are planning to use Locus and other place of power to maintain a certain level of magic during down-cycle to keep in power.

For me the late 4th age saw a conflagration between Thera and the IE and Dragons, IE and Dragons probably uniting (on Aine incite ?) against Theran to stop their scheme wich in fact could have helped the Horrors too to maintain a bridge during 5th World down-cycle.

Then the Dragons AND IE maintain a presence in the area to keep an eye on the situation. It is also possible that the destruction of the Locus produce an rapid chain reaction that sunk Thera and lower the magic level so fast Dragons were trapped far away from their usual lair and had to adapt fast.

I can also see the IE being divided between supporting Thera and fighting Dragons and supporting Dragons against Thera. That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).

For this topic I have a question,...since Im not so forged in events related to Locus....I got the idea that Locus in question (That one Aztech had under control) is an artefact Therans developed to survive the downtime until next magic age comes. I also had a feeling, that there is more than just one Locus (hardly remembering this well IMO in Aztechnology there was quoted as: they have one of Locus or something). Can you enlighten me? Thx

Mirikon

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« Reply #85 on: <05-25-12/0816:40> »
In the Aztlan book, Jungle Cat (who I believe is Hualpa) says that they have a Locus point in Amazonia. They also talk about the possibility of Aztlan having a Locus point, and there is a round of shudders at the idea that theirs might be Corrupt.


As a side note, after rereading the Aztlan book, I'm thinking that the person who anonymously sent the Aztlan info to Shadowland (who the sysops dubbed Espectro, or Ghost) was actually Dunkelzhan himself. There was a good deal said about how hard it would be for someone to get legit documents from so many places: confidential reports from Ares Arms, UCAS ConsOps, Yucatan rebels, and so on. One poster said that there was no one so well connected into so many groups. But after Dunkelzhan's death, when we learned certain things like his seat on the boards of both Aztechnology and Ares, as well as his network of Watchers, who would have been better placed to collect such a file, and get it to Shadowland anonymously?
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CanRay

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« Reply #86 on: <05-25-12/1221:34> »
Another dragon.

Now, how many would?  Not many.  So, yeah, it's likely Dunkie.  Also explains why he pulled in the "Hidden Council" group to comment on it.
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Nath

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« Reply #87 on: <05-25-12/1935:54> »
I can also see the IE being divided between supporting Thera and fighting Dragons and supporting Dragons against Thera. That will enlight why there is a dragon in the council of one Tir (pro Elf/Dragon alliance) and none in the council of the other (pro Elf/Theran alliance).

I thought Tir nA nOg was the legacy of the Blood Wood, not anything to do with the Therans???

The high number of elven birth in Ireland suggests there was an Elven nation there during the Fourth Age. So we can imagine it was among the realms ruled by the Blood Wood before the Scourge (one argument against this is that, if Serethea, modern-day Latvia, was in the Western Kingdoms, it somehow suggests the elves weren't aware or didn't care about places west of them).

However, Tir na nOg Seelie Court is different from the Blood Wood Elven Court, since it includes not only elves, but also spirits, pixies, leshies and the likes, who gather on some sort of metaplane. Maybe the island wasn't an elven nation, but the realm of "fairies". Elves and the Elven Court would have moved over there late in the Fourth Age and the fairies offered them those refugees a shelter. That could explain there seems to be far more fairies than elves at the Seelie Court.

Though Tir na nOg council of stewart, the gathering of the Danaan families, could be compared to both the Blood Wood Consorts and the Theran Empire Conclave, so can most oligarchies in history. On the other hand, there are eight major clans, the Danaan mór, just as Queen Alachia had eight Consorts in the Blood Wood (however, it's Alachia who set that number, there used to have more or less before).
But it also worth noting that while the major clans are known to have ruled Ireland since prehistoric times or so, clans of Norman ascent established in Ireland since the Middle ages (Fitzgerald, Burke and Butler) also belong to the Council of Stewarts. So the historical connection with the Fourth Age may prove thin. They nonetheless had a number of elven birth just as high as the other clan (save the big eight). There may be an explanation, like some Norman family line going back to Shosara, or some wandering Immortal Elves fathering one of their ancestor.

Tir Tairngire Council of Princes may also be compared to the Blood Wood Consorts. The number of elven Princes also was eight: Aithne Oakforest, Sean Laverty, Jenna ni'Fairra, Ehran, Jonathon Reed, Maria Cinebal and Dar Varien, plus Sosan Naerain (strongly hinted at being the former Queen of the Blood Wood, Alachia) or Lugh Surehand (depending which of those two you want to piss off by insinuating he/she is a consort).
There was no dragon on the council at the founding of Tir Tairngire. As far as the telling goes, it was Surehand own decision, strongly resisted by all the other immortals, except Sean Laverty. So maybe immortal elves and great dragons hadn't discussed the foundation of Tir Tairngire beforehand. But there might have been some sort of agreement to have a dragon overseer on the council, and the princes were simply opposed at the seat going to Alamais' brother. It seems also Lofwyr got to choose who would replace him when in left.

It's difficult to assess Hestaby position, since she first appeared to block Tir Tairngire military forces moving in Mount Shasta area. If the IE knew there was a great dragon lair in the area, they would have knew the invasion was meant to fail. Had they discussed the importance of Crater Lake with dragons during the Fourth Age and the need to watch over it, they could have know one of the dragon was to set a lair near (there's less than 200 kilometers between Crater Lake and Mount Shasta ; it's next door to a  magical flying lizard). Maybe they weren't sure Hestaby was awake or survived the "downhunt" and sent military troops to see if something happens.

What I found to be the most telling point is the fact Tir Tairngire head of state is no king, only a high prince. Would have Alachia be Queen of Tir Tairngire if the other IE hadn't barred her from it? Or does the crown officially remains in Tir na nOg, as an "host" of the local fairy court?

Alachia obviously has the pivotal role. She was the Queen of the Blood Wood during the Fourth Age. In the Sixth, she is (or so it seems) only one of the Prince of Tir Tairngire, and an advisor to the Queen of the Seelie Court. She is also at the head of the Atlantean Foundation, but Dawn of the Artifacts revealed she forged the Atlantean/Theran codex she showed to the Mystic Crusaders. So Alachia is actually pillaging the Theran legacy. Call that an ally.

The true heir of the Theran Empire seems to be the Heavenherds tribe in the Zulu Nation, where Thera established their colony of Aznan. "Heavenherd" was the title of Thera most powerful mage, who were all humans or elves. The Zulu Nation, on the other hand, is an Elven nation, and the Heavenherds tribe is known for including really only elves. According to Augmentation, the Heavenherds tribe knew magical rituals designed to lengthen the lives of the most worthy members of the tribe, by binding them to something called "passions" (sounds familiar ?). Frosty comments both Tir na nOg and Tir Tairngire "wooed" the tribe.
I think at some point the Therans formed one group of Heavenherds, sent to Aznan and tasked with preserving Theran lore and knowledge during the Fifth Age. All of them were elves because they had a longer lifespan to start with, with rituals on top of that. But it may not have been enough for any of them to survive until the return of magic.
« Last Edit: <05-26-12/0702:39> by Nath »

TheNarrator

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« Reply #88 on: <05-26-12/0242:56> »
We have no real idea on how long between ED time and real end of the 4th world, probably a mere centuries, I dont think a millenium.

Actually, we do. Earthdawn starts right after the end of the Scourge, which was a period of about 400 years during which the mana level was highest and the Horrors could run amok. This would have been roughly in the middle of the Fourth World, about halfway between the downcycles of the Third and Fifth worlds. The Mayan Long Count is about 5,000 years long, so there should be about 2,000 years between Earthdawn and the mana level dropping to pre-Awakening levels.

Sichr

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« Reply #89 on: <05-26-12/0458:51> »
.....

tell me more oh masta...

Excelent post. Thank you very much...more lore :)