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"Average" Comlink

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Crash_00

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« Reply #30 on: <11-27-11/0013:32> »
Just remember, there is one good custom software suite out there for every 100 or so bad ones. A lot of times people gripe about the programmers when dealing with the software, but from the programmers standpoint, if you explain a hundred times that something won't be efficient and the client (the boss of everyone who will actually use the software usually) insists anyway, well he's writing the check.

I absolutely hate programming for people who don't understand the process at all but want to play "make believe" that they do. It almost always ends with a pile of useless crap getting delivered to them that you know they will gripe about despite vetoing every change you suggested to their foolproof design. *Shudders at the memory of someone insisting they can divide by zero so the computer should be able to also*

Joush

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« Reply #31 on: <11-27-11/0825:45> »
The cost of the company paying to have these programs coded is going to be much less than upgrading every officer's commlink to run the same effective programs licensed separately.

No. This is like saying that it would be cheaper to, rather then buying cars and guns, have the company build it's own factories to produce all the equipment it needs from scratch.

Software development for some things is relatively cheap. Getting your company to have it's own flavor of linix and it's own simple, not very optimized versions of database software isn't a big deal.

For -anything- else, it's much, much cheaper to buy a licensed copy of otherwise developed software. If you need to manage a database with a few hundred columns and a million entries a day that you need to be able to processes efficiently, you could spend half a billion dollars developing your own solution or a few million on a contract with Cisco.

And that is a -database-. It's just simple bits of info in rows and columns. Developing your own in house electronic warfare, facial recognition or operating system software would be the least efficient and logical possible way to go about things, especially when you could cheaply license software from another division of the same parent company, in many cases.


In SR: Knight Errant, for example, would get software from another Aries company when possible. If they couldn't, they are in business to make money. They'd buy software on the open market rather then do something that 1) They don't have the people to do. (No, they don't have a program development group on staff. That would be a pointless distraction from what the company dose)  2) They don't have managers that understand. (It's a paramilitary police force. They'd have to bring in a whole management staff that knows software development) 3) Cost much more.

tzizimine

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« Reply #32 on: <11-27-11/1017:26> »
I would say that 1) Any AAA corp would have a software development if no other reason to try to stay on top of Matrix security, is always a threat, and 2) any company that works in security and public safety would need a top notch software house to help protect from the number of Matrix threats out there. Given that one successful hack could cause a city's Gridlink system in a hundred car pile up or override a PanicButton call from a suburban home invasion.


That said, having eyes and ears... and useful commlinks on the ground provides KE's Matrix Overwatch Team useful intel on what's going on. And given that KE got the Seattle contract because Lone Star wasn't doing the job, they can get all the useful PR they want from the camera feeds of KE beat cops arresting gangers and criminals, proving that they are protecting the public.


As for the exact details of the commlinks, an average beat cop or security officer link, it would need to be reliable but mass produced and able to get the job done. Now, it doesn't need to be fancy and it doesn't need to do everything at once. There's nothing wrong with turning off the Scan program to run a Browse  for a Data Search and flipping them back when you have the criminal's bio from HQ. Spending around 4-5,000 Y per beat cop may seem like a lot, but since it's mass produced and the software can be copied, the actual price per thousand is significantly less than 5,000,000 Y. And given that one's commlink is just as, if not more, useful than one's sidearm, all cops know to keep their commlink safe.
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Crash_00

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« Reply #33 on: <11-27-11/2338:51> »
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No. This is like saying that it would be cheaper to, rather then buying cars and guns, have the company build it's own factories to produce all the equipment it needs from scratch.
No, its like saying exactly what I said. If KE is developing the software suites to use, there is a good chance they will be used by all officers that are working on Law Enforcement contracts. Assuming this is a ridiculously low number like 10,000 officers, and they were only wanting to be able to run four programs at a time (for instance Weapon Watcher, Noise Analysis, Scan, and Analyze, needing a Response and System of 5 to run without degradation), they would be looking at 4,000¥ in hardware for the response upgrade and 2,500¥.

Now, lets drop the hardware to like 100¥ saying Ares just supplies the parts at cost to its subsidiary (after all it is highly in the corporation's interest to keep its pet in a position of power), we can't drop the system cost because the example completely assumes that Ares has no software development team. That's 10,000 people times 2,600¥ for a whopping total of 26,000,000¥ to upgrade all of their commlinks. As long as the software budget is under that, KE comes out ahead by having their own designed. 10,000 officers is more than the current SPD has by a long shot, but keep in mind that Seattle in SR includes several of the surrounding cities as districts and is much much more violent. For comparison, the greater New York area has over 35,000 officers sworn in, so 10,000 in the Seattle Sprawl in 2073 is still a rather conservative number.
Now,  then, lets say you're paying your programmers 75k a year. You can afford to pay a team of 60 programmers for five years and be under budget (which should be more than enough time). To round this out, Ares already has software development subsidiaries to tap into.

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For -anything- else, it's much, much cheaper to buy a licensed copy of otherwise developed software.
Not so, for a lot of other things, then yes it is. If you only need THAT software working by itself. If you need that software to operate side by side with eight other software packages and share data perfectly, then its almost always easier and cheaper in the long run to have your own software designed for you. This is why current corporations...have their programming teams design their software for them rather than just licensing the software. Between the number of licenses needed, the bugs and mishaps with training everyone to use all of the software packages together, and the constant threat of price hikes or a company going under and your software becoming outdated, licensing existing software is usually done by small and/or low budget corporation or corporations that just don't need anything but that one software package.
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In SR: Knight Errant, for example, would get software from another Aries company when possible. If they couldn't, they are in business to make money. They'd buy software on the open market rather then do something that 1) They don't have the people to do. (No, they don't have a program development group on staff. That would be a pointless distraction from what the company dose)  2) They don't have managers that understand. (It's a paramilitary police force. They'd have to bring in a whole management staff that knows software development) 3) Cost much more.
Oh most likely they will. I look at Knight Errant as Ares, because lets face it, Knight Errant is an Ares pawn. It always has been. Most likely, a software development subsidiary of Ares designed a large portion of the software, but I would see the software being turned over to Knight Errant for use and Ares fitting the bill for the development. Knight Errant is in a position to keep Ares very happy in Seattle (what's better than being able to instill the fear of god into runners hitting your corp while insuring at the same time that help never arrives on time to your rivals?  8) ). You also have another case of corporate aid here as Knight Errant can easily field/beta test equipment being released by other Ares subsidiaries providing quick and reliable data.

I do disagree with several of your points though.

1.) While not bleeding edge, Knight Errant does have a cutting edge matrix development team oriented primarily toward IC and detection (I believe it was first talked about in the old Corporate Security Handbook). That was back around 2050 or 2055, Knight Errant has kept its elite image, that's its entire purpose. I would assume that they would have a very very large development team. I would also assume this team would be developing the OS and main detection programs (Analysis, Scan) or countermeasure programs (Exploit, Attack, Black Hammer) used by KE officers and spiders. They may or may not be able to handle more software development, but they do exist and I would believe its grown to the point that it can as much as the matrix has intruded on everyday life.

2.) Lone Star may not have managers that understand, Knight Errant is an elite paramilitary police force. With the 2073 matrix being everywhere, Knight Errant managers had damn well better understand about the matrix. If they don't they'll be getting tossed down into the Hard Corps ranks pretty damn fast. Keep in mind the Knight Errant is the spawn of Damien Knight, who is no slouch when it comes to matrix exploitation (how do you think he got the company?). In addition, it doesn't just handle Law Enforcement contracts, and many of its private contracts likely have lots of valuable data stored in the matrix. Knight Errant is supposed to be a one stop shop for security, I would say they already have, and have had since day one, a management team that understands the matrix as well as a set of in between managers that help the matrix guys and physical guys group their data sufficiently. Knight Errant is not a cheap security force. Ares has a cheap security force named Hard Corps. They didn't get a police contract.

3.) The software itself might cost less if bought instead of created, but the cost of upgrading and the software will cost more than just building the software. Not to mention, that by building the software themselves they get to cherry pick features and design it their way rather than having to deal with the decisions of a different developer.

Joush

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« Reply #34 on: <11-28-11/0558:04> »
KE has an in house cyber-security/investgation division. The difference between a cyber security and investigation group and people that develop and support software full time is massive. At most, they would have a group of software mediation specialist that work to make different bits of equipment and software work together well.

The cost and time lag of developing their own in-house software while paying to build what amounts to a software development company that never sells any products outside the company?

Nope. Never going to happen.

Buying software licenses as cheaply as possible by contracting them from a subsidiary of the same company? Of course. This would NOT be exclusive software however. it would just be, at most, a customized software package including versions of the market available software.

Oh, and no, it wouldn't be free. Asking another division of the company to eat red ink by giving away software licenses wouldn't happen now. In SR, just asking for such a deal would be a good way for a middle manager to take out a hit on you.

In the real world their are open source options for many software packages that have a list cost of 0$ and are -still- more expensive to use then other open market, expensive software because they don't come with support contracts. Developing and supporting software is limited to companies that develop and support software as part of their core business.


The last point you overlooked is that starting a development house to make your own software in another company, when the development will never be anything but red ink, is that you are going to get a really shitty development company. Being the VP in charge of OS development for a company that makes operating systems is great. Being the VP in charge of OS development for a police force is a dead end job with nowhere else to go where you are going to be constantly asked to find ways to do your job more cheaply.

Crash_00

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« Reply #35 on: <11-28-11/1640:22> »
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The last point you overlooked is that starting a development house to make your own software in another company, when the development will never be anything but red ink, is that you are going to get a really shitty development company. Being the VP in charge of OS development for a company that makes operating systems is great. Being the VP in charge of OS development for a police force is a dead end job with nowhere else to go where you are going to be constantly asked to find ways to do your job more cheaply.

I think you're forgetting the setting. In SR every corp job is a dead end at the top unless you want to pay for an extraction. That's assuming you actually believe this, which I don't. Yes, you'll constantly be asked to do your job cheaper, but that isn't the only thing you'll doing. You'll be constantly having the systems updated. Constantly adding new features to the software to help the company do their job. Constantly streamlining for efficiency. They won't be developing a single OS, two software suites, then quitting. Let's face it, KE is supposed to be the elite of the elite. Law enforcement has constantly been having to upgrade to stay competitive with the criminal element. In 2073, part of that upgrade would be matrix support and supporting programs. These guys would be constantly busy, and KE can afford to pay them well by SR standards.

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In the real world their are open source options for many software packages that have a list cost of 0$ and are -still- more expensive to use then other open market, expensive software because they don't come with support contracts. Developing and supporting software is limited to companies that develop and support software as part of their core business.

Again, I suggest you actually look into some of the major companies out there. Is Walmart a software development company? Is Boeing a software development company? How about the U.S. Army? These are three off the top of my head that have a dedicated software development division. Sure, they'll often license some programs from other companies if they don't want to spend the development time on it. When they do this, they are licensing programs for things that aren't vital to their main goals and doesn't  have to be secure.

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Buying software licenses as cheaply as possible by contracting them from a subsidiary of the same company? Of course. This would NOT be exclusive software however. it would just be, at most, a customized software package including versions of the market available software.

Oh, and no, it wouldn't be free. Asking another division of the company to eat red ink by giving away software licenses wouldn't happen now. In SR, just asking for such a deal would be a good way for a middle manager to take out a hit on you.

Of course it would be exclusive. There are two common ways software is sold: Licenses and Code. Licensing is common to most people, because every piece of software they buy as a single user comes as a license. They don't own the software at all, they just are able to use it through their license (which ever as a programmer I hate the idea of).

Code is how most companies buy software when it is being developed for them. The company is hiring another company to develop software X so they can buy Y licenses. They are contracting another company to develop software X so that they can buy software X. This is almost always done as an exclusive piece of software. Will you see bits of code just like bits in software X surface in other projects? Yes. That's because as humans, once we learn to do something one way, we tend to keep doing it that way.

As far as the free business. I already stated that it would be cheaper in the long run than updated the officer's commlinks. That said, Knight Errant is a subsidiary of Ares that is in a unique position to help its parent company out a lot. I never said that the software development subsidiary would be working for free, I said I could see Ares paying for it. Its not uncommon to see parent corporations paying to help their subsidiaries today. Especially when those subsidiaries are in a place to bring in a lot of revenue, or in Knight Errant's case, hinder rivals.

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The cost and time lag of developing their own in-house software while paying to build what amounts to a software development company that never sells any products outside the company?

Nope. Never going to happen.

Happens today, so 62 years in the future, still going to be happening. Software development can take years. It depends on what you're trying to do. It can also take weeks or months depending on what you are trying to do.

Its one of the few fields where throwing a large number of people at the problem actually causes it to take longer. I suggest reading The Mythical Man Month by Fred Brooks if you really don't believe this. Programming is more of an art than a true science, in that everyone does it differently. Sure, you have to use the same rules, but how you lay it out, how you comment it, etc. all changes from programmer to programmer. The more programmers you have working on one project, the more "dialects" of the programming language the team has to deal with as they try to mesh each person's work together.

Many people look at Windows and Mac and how often their OSs release and come to the conclusion, "Oh, that's how long development has to take." Its really not. These OSs (which in SR their is no single company monopoly) are released with several key factors, the most important of which is profit (which of course has nothing to do with the programming side). If Microsoft released a new OS every 6 months, or every year, none of them would make enough profit to cover the development costs.

As an in house development team, KE Software (what I'm going to dub the team for now) would never have to worry about the profit of selling the software. Sure, they'll still have a budget and a deadline to work with, but they can effectively release a new OS every 6 months if it falls within budget, each version streamlining it further with data they get from their officers in the field. Tying into the above point, this is another reason why it isn't a dead end job. How many times do you actually get to sit down and work on a project without worrying about, how are we going to make money off of this, and just being able to make the damn thing better. its a rarity.

As far as KE itself is concerned, they aren't trying to make a profit off of the software development team. It would be seen as just another expense like gas, ammunition, medical insurance, maintenance, etc. If you want to stay on top of the game, there will be expenses. This is exactly how the software development teams are seen at the companies I mentioned above. Software development is about building software, it can be a very profitable industry, but it isn't always done for profit off of the software itself.

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KE has an in house cyber-security/investgation division. The difference between a cyber security and investigation group and people that develop and support software full time is massive. At most, they would have a group of software mediation specialist that work to make different bits of equipment and software work together well.

Thing is, they have to have a development team for that cyber-security/investigation division if they want to stay cutting edge. If for nothing else than to develop the software that the security/investigation division uses for security and investigation. An elite corporation will not be using commonly available, out of the box, software for this. If they are, no one will hire them for it, because they can hire Timmy the local college dropout, buy a license of software, and get their security much cheaper. In house development teams are almost always faster at responding and coming up with a solution than going through outside sources.

When you're firewall is breached, you have six clients begging you to fix their systems, and you have no idea what is happening; Do you want to be on hold with SoftyCorp because their Lead Developer is in a meeting, or do you want to have twenty to sixty programmers already working out the solution? On this note, many non-software development companies have had dedicated teams as far back as the 80's, its not a new trend.

Joush

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« Reply #36 on: <11-29-11/0611:40> »

"Again, I suggest you actually look into some of the major companies out there. Is Walmart a software development company? Is Boeing a software development company? How about the U.S. Army? These are three off the top of my head that have a dedicated software development division. Sure, they'll often license some programs from other companies if they don't want to spend the development time on it. When they do this, they are licensing programs for things that aren't vital to their main goals and doesn't  have to be secure."

Walmart use inventory tracking and database software made for them because there no commercial option.Walmart has utterly unique requirements that gave them no choice but to have software developed. They have not and will not develop their own operating system. Your point is invalid.

The US Army is by a massive margin the best funded ground military that has ever existed in the history of humanity. They, again, have requirements for software that are unique and would not exist if they did not develop it. They do not develop operating systems. Your point is invalid.

Bowing has developed software for aerospace applications for the last 60 years. I have no idea why you would think they do not develop software? It's a major part of their business. They use publicly available CAD programs and operating systems. Your point, again, is invalid. It's like remarking that Sony develops software in house.

"Software development can take years. It depends on what you're trying to do. It can also take weeks or months depending on what you are trying to do. "

Programming certain things can be done quickly and efficiently by a small team or even one person. Developing something as complex as an operating system or facial recognition software are not among those things. It takes about 100 man-years of labor to develop a modern operating system, so unless you are very patient and immortal having one person do it really isn't an option. 


" An elite corporation will not be using commonly available, out of the box, software for this. If they are, no one will hire them for it, because they can hire Timmy the local college dropout, buy a license of software, and get their security much cheaper."

Just like how none ever hires commercial artist anymore because there are programs for that, and nobody hires sound techs because programs exist for that, and how they had to lay off the last civic engineer because now you can just hire anyone with the right software to do that.  I can't believe you believe that.

You don't seem to understand the economic factors involved here. To use a building analogy, this is like saying a small company should construct it's own new office building because they have building maintenance people on staff and that is exactly the same as having a construction company. I don't really think there is any point in continuing this conversation.

Crash_00

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« Reply #37 on: <11-30-11/2351:20> »
Wal-mart staffs a software development team in Bentonville, Arkansas as well as one in India. I've toured the one in Arkansas. They don't have the software built for them by another company, they have it built by their software development team. Your exact quote was: "Developing and supporting software is limited to companies that develop and support software as part of their core business."
Walmart's Core business is not software development or support. It's retail. To finish, they're PCs don't use custom OSs because they need them to be as user friendly as possible, but they use a number of handhelds that have had their systems designed in Bentonville.

Likewise, the Army and Boeing are not Software Development or Supporting corporations either, but they do it. Boeing uses some CAD programs that are commonly available, but they also develop and maintain more specialized programs designed specifically for designing ariplanes. It was a great topic of discussion when I was putting in my resume. I'm weird, I like to know what I'll be doing if I get hired at a company. Yes, they've had enough success that they've branched out, but their software development team was originally started for airplanes, not for sale.

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Programming certain things can be done quickly and efficiently by a small team or even one person. Developing something as complex as an operating system or facial recognition software are not among those things. It takes about 100 man-years of labor to develop a modern operating system, so unless you are very patient and immortal having one person do it really isn't an option. 

It depends entirely on how many features you want it to have and what the target audience is, as well as the language its being developed in, devices its being developed for, and how well you can upgrade it in the future (ie do you make a new OS in four years, or give this one a heavy update?). Modern Operating Systems are designed to be overly user-friendly and do more things than most corporate OSs would need to do (Assuming of course you are referring to windows, linux, and mac OSs). I've seen a PC operating system designed in half a semester by a team of three people as a junior level project. It wasn't pretty, it didn't have any special features, but it was secure and functioning. You give a team of 60 people exactly what you want the system to do (rather than having them try and make it do everything imaginable like modern OSs are made), and it will not take anywhere near 100 man-years to develop.

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You don't seem to understand the economic factors involved here. To use a building analogy, this is like saying a small company should construct it's own new office building because they have building maintenance people on staff and that is exactly the same as having a construction company. I don't really think there is any point in continuing this conversation.
I'll have to agree because that is no where near what I've been saying. If you want a good analogy for what I said, why would you hire a private security team to install wal-mart brand cameras around your house and monitor them, when you can buy wal-mart brand cameras around your house and hire the same number of people to watch them, for less? (Damn, now I'm reminded of a Wal-mart commercial)

Knight Errant is an elite company. No one would hire them for cyber-security if they aren't any better than all the cheaper options. This is fairly simple economics here. Being better, when it comes to cyber-security (especially in SR) is all about the software. Without better software, you cannot be much better in the SR system.

The vast majority of major corporations have their own software development division today. Independent design teams find most of their work from smaller companies or individuals that don't have enough need for a design team. Knight Errant is a major corporation 62 years in the future that holds contracts for private security across the world and at least one cannon Law Enforcement contract. They are definitely big enough to back having their own software development team.

Joush

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« Reply #38 on: <12-01-11/0511:48> »
Anyone can buy a badge, gun, radio, uniform and handcuffs right now too. Yet police departments remain. It's almost like trained professionals with a deep understanding of the business, a powerful network of contacts with cooperation organisations and a legal framework to support it is somehow better then a randomly selected person using the same equipment that anyone could buy on the open market.

I can't believe someone would believe something so wrongheaded. It's like saying there should be no professional artist because anyone can buy Photoshop.

Police work is maybe, being generous, 5% the equipment people have. The rest is training, leadership, communication and cooperation. Give a good cop a 100 year old pistol, change for pay phones, a Pontiac Chieftain black and white from the 50's and a shiny copper badge and he would still be a better cop then a randomly selected individual with all modern bells and whistles.

Xzylvador

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« Reply #39 on: <12-01-11/0542:51> »

JustADude

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« Reply #40 on: <12-01-11/0612:21> »
“What is right is not always popular and what is popular is not always right.”
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« Reply #41 on: <12-01-11/0647:28> »
No internet site is complete without it! And hadn't seen it here yet.

... wonder what the 2070 equivalent would be.

FastJack

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« Reply #42 on: <12-01-11/0741:22> »
No internet site is complete without it! And hadn't seen it here yet.

... wonder what the 2070 equivalent would be.
'Barry Mana'-ing (Attitude, p. 49)

Crash_00

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« Reply #43 on: <12-01-11/1012:19> »
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Anyone can buy a badge, gun, radio, uniform and handcuffs right now too. Yet police departments remain. It's almost like trained professionals with a deep understanding of the business, a powerful network of contacts with cooperation organisations and a legal framework to support it is somehow better then a randomly selected person using the same equipment that anyone could buy on the open market.

There are other cyber-security corporations out there. Knight Errant is elite and expensive. Knight Errant isn't the only one with a legal framework, an understanding of the business, or contacts. The problem here is that in SR computer "skill" is half skill and half program. How is Knight-Errant elite, or better, if they're only marginally better than a competent company? Even at an average skill of 5 instead of 3, without better programs, that's not even an hit on average without better software as well. Meaning that it wouldn't even be a noticeable effect for most people.
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I can't believe someone would believe something so wrongheaded. It's like saying there should be no professional artist because anyone can buy Photoshop.

No, its like saying if X is doing the same exact job as Y, why do I consider Y more elite than X? Why do I pay Y more than X? If Y has much greater resources, why isn't Y putting some of them back into its business to stay ahead of the game? This is exactly the kind of thing you see when artists start demanding too much money and their are unheard of artists doing the same level of artwork. Sure, some past clients may still work with the old artist for friendship or just because he's proven reliable, but most newer clients are going to find someone cheaper doing the same grade of work.

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Police work is maybe, being generous, 5% the equipment people have. The rest is training, leadership, communication and cooperation. Give a good cop a 100 year old pistol, change for pay phones, a Pontiac Chieftain black and white from the 50's and a shiny copper badge and he would still be a better cop then a randomly selected individual with all modern bells and whistles.

And cyber-security is not. Cyber-security is very much about the tools at your disposal. Then again, 62 years in the future with AR, I don't really see just a pistol, phone and cruiser being enough to keep an officer in the game either. Police adapt just as much as everyone else in the world. There is a reason they wear vests now, there is a reason they aren't standard issued .38s anymore, there is a reason most of them are taught basic computer skills these days. An elite officer in 2073 had damn well better have more than a gun, a badge, and a cruiser or they're going to be way behind the curve and KE won't be holding that contract for long.

tzizimine

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« Reply #44 on: <12-01-11/1038:08> »
I would have to agree that even the most basic beat cop would have to have some training in computers, if for just the two following reasons.


1) Data Search for all the times that they have to search someone's SIN, facial recognition, location or news.
2) Electronic Warfare for using the Scan programs to find people using commlinks in Hidden Mode, which is against the law in most areas.
3) Computer for any editing / updating of people's records, writing tickets, etc.


That said, I can believe that most cops don't need the other computer skills (Software, Hardware, Hacking, Cybercombat), so it doesn't pay to have skill groups (efficiency of Karma is only useful if 3+ skills in a group are useful) and even then, they wouldn't have a lot in those skills (I would say 2 in each). The programs they use would be of great help, based on what Knight Errant (or appropriate Ares subsidiary) would get in bulk.


Looking at it from just a personal cost standpoint, an 'average' commlink (by the numbers) for a cop would be:
Transys Avalon (Response: 3, Signal: 3) with Iris Orb OS (Firewall: 3, System: 3) = 2,250 Y
Basic+ Package (Analyze: 3, Browse: 3, Command: 1, Edit: 3) = 400 Y
Encrypt 3: = 150 Y
Scan 3: = 150 Y
AR Gloves = 250 Y
Biometric Reader (I prefer Voice Print) = 200Y
Glasses (2) w/ Image Link & Smartlink = 575Y
SubVoc Mic = 50Y
Earbuds (1) = 10 Y
Total: 4,035Y

4,035Y is not a lot of money for a typical character build. And even though you could only have 2 programs running without the Response dropping, you can have all 6 programs running without the commlink crashing. The Response for this kind of commlink isn't really that important since these people are not going VR or rigging with these commlinks and Response reduction does not affect the basic Program + Skill use.
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