[lonewolf23k]

Something I got to thinking about while reading up on Sperethiel, the Ancient Elven Language in Shadowrun; I wondered if some modern-day Elves had instead adopted the Elven languages invented by Tolkien, when a thought occurred to me:  The story of the Lord of the Rings was presented as an ancient, rediscovered legend of the world before magic faded away...


...What if it turns out that was true?  What if Tolkien, instead of inventing the world of Middle-Earth from scratch, had really found records saved from the end of the Fourth World, retelling of a battle between a Kingdom of Humans, Dwarves and Elves (and a Gnome-like variant race of Dwarves) against a kingdom of Orks and Trolls?  The portrayal of the Orks and Trolls as Horror-Serving monsters could be little more then Historical Revision by the winners. 

Perhaps then that Sindarin was an early, first attempt at translating a record in Sperethiel before the rise of the Sixth World.

[Dead Monky]

Oh god, not Tolkien.  Please, please no Tolkien.

[FastJack]

I had done some calculations on the Mayan calendar and seeing if the "Ages" could be applied to certain areas and, well, sorry Monky.

Tolkien's Fourth Age starts after Frodo destroys the ring. That would jive with an age of rising magic, aka the Earthdawn Age (which is the end of the fourth age). So, it could be pre-pre-history.

But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us.

[lonewolf23k]

I had done some calculations on the Mayan calendar and seeing if the "Ages" could be applied to certain areas and, well, sorry Monky.

Tolkien's Fourth Age starts after Frodo destroys the ring. That would jive with an age of rising magic, aka the Earthdawn Age (which is the end of the fourth age). So, it could be pre-pre-history.

Hey, I never said it was an accurate translation.  ...Heck, for what it's worth, Tolkien probably ended up translating a completely fictional novel of the Fourth Age.  Wouldn't that be ironic?

But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us.

Yeah, I heard about Gibson's dislike of Shadowrun, but I didn't know about the Tolkien hate.  ...Seeing as how I love both Tolkien and Shadowrun, it never occured to me.

[Dead Monky]

I don't get the obsession with tying it all together in the first place.  Who cares?  Obviously they're both influences, but why try to shoehorn Tolkien (or Gibson for that matter) into it?  Just let it all stand apart.

Fantasy of all kinds really needs to start pulling away from Tolkien anyway.  In general, it's hampered too much by the various Tolkien tropes and cliches.

[FastJack]

Well, the Tolkien hate's not as strong because it's spawned SOOOO much in the gaming world. But trying publishing a gaming book using the word Hobbit for a race...

[Dead Monky]

Well, the Tolkien hate's not as strong because it's spawned SOOOO much in the gaming world.

Yeah, but you'd think people would be more willing to look beyond Tolkien.  Or at least take things further or in different directions than they do.

But trying publishing a gaming book using the word Hobbit for a race...

They did that, back in 1st Ed D&D.

[FastJack]

They did that, back in 1st Ed D&D.

Yeah, and TSR caught holy hell from the Tolkien estate because of it... Which is why D&D has halflings.

[Dead Monky]

Yeah.  All they did at first was change the name.  For years they were still the exact same thing in all but name.  Creepy giant hairy feet and all.

[lonewolf23k]

I don't get the obsession with tying it all together in the first place.  Who cares?  Obviously they're both influences, but why try to shoehorn Tolkien (or Gibson for that matter) into it?  Just let it all stand apart.

Fantasy of all kinds really needs to start pulling away from Tolkien anyway.  In general, it's hampered too much by the various Tolkien tropes and cliches.

Look, the reasoning of this idea was "Well, Tolkien obviously existed in the History of Shadowrun, and he must've written the Lord of the Rings saga.  So in a world that did have an ancient prehistoric world of Magic and Dragons, did he really come up with the idea all on his own, or did something (or someone) inspire him to write it?"

I'm certainly not suggesting that Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Frodo and all the rest actually did exist during the days of Earthdawn. 

[MJBurrage]

From what I know of pre-Tolkien elfs and dwarfs, it is pretty clear that Shadowrun's elves and dwarves are primarily based on Tolkien's versions.  Of course Shadowrun orks and trolls are very non-Tolkien (and I suspect deliberately so).

Having said that, in the Shadowrun universe the Fourth World—and its elves and dwarves—came before Tolkien, so clearly he had access to some information that most of the world did not.

[FastJack]

The key is that the "Ages" of Earthdawn/Shadowrun are in the Millennial range, not centuries. So, Tolkien's Middle Earth would be the beginning of the Fourth age, while Earthdawn would be at a MUCH higher Mana Point somewhere just past the midpoint of the age (anywhere between 2,000-5,000 years past Frodo). And with higher mana comes the more esoteric races (Windlings, Obsidimen, etc.). That's also plenty of time for Uruk-hai and Trolls to evolve into the more familiar brands...

[MJBurrage]

So in the "real" story—that Tolkien adapted and expanded into Middle Earth—the One Ring would be a Second World artifact that allows the early return of Sauron (a horror).  By destroying the Ring, the heroes thus prevented his early return.

[Nomad Zophiel]

The way I figure it, unless you're going to have the lost 4th Age manuscripts that Tolkein cribbed from in you game, its more or less irrelevant whether or not its true. Personally, if I'm going to have lost 4th Age manuscripts, it'll look more like something from Dawn of Artifacts. In the same way, I tend not to speculate on relationships to Earthdawn unless they're likely to crop up in play.

[Mystic]

But many fans don't tie into Tolkien that much for the same reason we don't talk Gibson that much--The other author's camps just don't like us.

Hmmm never heard from this before, then again I have limited contact with that fandom...so how come if I may ask?