[anotherJack]

I apologize if this post isn't easy to understand, I'm french, so my english…

I've got a few questions about powers and spells sustained ;
Points :
- exclusives actions no longer exist in SR4
- in street magic there's a very clear exemple of a spirit who can use a power in physical plane, and so need to materialize to cast it, but not to sustain it, he can materialize himself, cast his power, and then go back to the astral plane while sustaining his power :

Passive powers such as Astral Form, Energy Aura, or Materialization don’t require the use of services, they are assumed to be included with any other service that requires their use. Since Guard is a physical power, it requires the spirit to be physical in order to activate it (though not to sustain it). Therefore, a spirit ordered to use Guard on someone would need to use Materialize or Possession before it could do so, and both actions would only require one service (though it might immediately go back to astral plane while sustaining the Guard effect, depending on what other services it was performing at the time).

So a few questions about it :
1) If a spirit can sustain a power and go back to astral plane, can a spirit sustain a power while put "standby", in his metaplane ?
2) Can a mage do the same thing with his spells ? exemple : a mage throw a spell on the astral plane, and sustain it while going back to physical plane. Other exemple : a mage throw a spell on the physical plane and sustain it while projecting in the astral plane
3) Can a spell or power be sustained if the target shifts planes ? exemple : a mage goes dual, a spirit throw a mana power on his astral form, then the mage goes back physical, while the spirit still sustain the power.

And another question, more or less linked : it is specified that damages done to any of the two sides of a magician in astral projection affects both sides of the mage, his physical and astral body.
Is it still the same for healings and so ? if we cast a spell on the body of a mage while he's in astral projection, assuming that the spell can affect an astral form, will the spell applie on the mage's astral body ?

[Kaarchin]

1) Il ne me semble pas avoir vu de contrexemple interdisant à un Esprit de continuer à soutenir un pouvoir depuis les Métaplans. Cependant en tant que MJ je pense que je ne l'autoriserait pas.
2) A priori rien n'empêche un Mage de soutenir un sort lancé sur un Plan à partir d'un autre. Mais il faudrait sans doute faire un jet de concentration comme lorsqu'un Mage prend des dégâts, est jeté par terre etc.
3) Là ça devient plus compliqué. Si le sort est lancé sur la forme astrale du Mage en projection lorsqu'il réintègre son corps sa forme astrale "disparait". Il n'est plus présent dans l'espace astrale donc le sort n'a plus de cible. De l'autre côté si un sort physique est lancé sur le Mage, lorsqu'il se projette le sort est toujours actif. Mais n'affecte toujours que son corps.

Des soins appliqués au corps du Mage soigneraient ses blessures physiques, qu'elles aient été infligés dans l'Astral ou le Physique. S'il existait un sort qui permette de soigner les blessures Étourdissantes il faudrait le lancer sur le forme astrale du Mage et non sur son corps (ce serait logiquement un sort Mana)
Un sort ne peut pas cibler ce qui n'est pas là, sauf dans le cas de magie rituelle. Donc un sort ne peut pas affecter la forme astrale d'un Mage en le lançant sur sa "forme physique".
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1) I do not remember seeing somewhere that a Spirit can't sustain a spell from the Metaplans. But as a GM i don't think i would allow it.
2) A priori nothing prevent a Magician to keep sustaining a power cast on a Plane when shifting. But she would most certainly have to make a concentration roll to avoid dropping it. Kind of like she takes damages, fall prone etc. (See ACore p184)
3) Here things become tricky. If the spell is cast on the Astral Form of the projecting Magician, when she return in her body her Astral Form "disappear". She is not in Astral Space anymore so the spell does no longer have a target, and fail. On the other hand if a Physical spell is cast on the Magician, when she project the spell is not affected. But the spell still affect only her body, not her Astral Form.

Healing the body of a projecting Magician would heal her physical wounds, whether they were suffered on the Astral of Physical Plane. If there were a spell that could heal Stun damages, it would had to be cast on the Astral Form of the Magician and not her body (i assume it would be a Mana Spell).
A Spell can not target something that is not there, except for Ritual Spellcasting, so a spell can not affect the Astral Form of a Magician by being cast on her "Physical Form".

[Mooncrow]

Yay for bilingual people =)  I was trying to write up something that would be reasonably clear, but French is not one of the languages I do well with   I believe that everything Kaarchin said is correct.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Thank you for the bilingual reply.  Very kind of you. 

[anotherJack]

No problem with english answers, I'm not good at writting it, but no problem in reading ^^

Thanks Kaarchin, I came to the same conclusions about sustaining a power while the spirit is in the metaplanes.
And okay for the 3). I thought that maybe a mana spell or power cast on the astral form of a projecting or dual mage could be sustained if he goes back to the physical plane, assuming the spell affects the target's mind, which doesn't disappear but simply goes from a plane to another. But it's one point to assume that a cast spell can be sustained on the plane he's been cast, and another to imagine that a spell cast can go sustained through planes.

About the two sides of a projecting magician, there's still some shadows : I don't undestand how you can on one hand use healing on the body and heal the body and the soul, and on the other hand you can't affect the astral form if you target the body ; the only way to explain it I find is : the healing spell cast on the body doesn't affect the astral form, but its consequences does, but then it must be the same for some other spells. And do you mean that mana spells or powers can't be cast on an "empty" body ? must it be considered as a non-living target ?

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Aucun problème avec les réponses en anglais. Chuis mauvais à l'écriture, pas à la lecture (et ça permet à tout le monde de participer)

Merci Kaarchin, j'arrivais aux mêmes conclusions sur le maintien depuis les métaplans : aucune interdiction, mais ça bouscule singulièrement le gameplay des pouvoirs d'esprits.
Okay pour le point 3). Je pensais qu'un sort mana ou un pouvoir lancé sur un mage en projection ou perception astrale pouvait être maintenu lorsqu'il réintégrait le plan physique, puisque le sort affecte l'esprit de la cible (ex : augmenter ou diminuer un attribut mental), qui ne disparaît pas mais passe simplement d'un plan à l'autre. Mais c'est effectivement une chose d'accepter qu'un sort puisse être maintenu sur le plan où il a été lancé pendant que son lanceur maintien le lien, et une autre d'imaginer qu'un sort maintenu puisse traverser les plans.

À propos des deux faces d'un magicien en projection, il y a toujours quelques zones d'ombres : je ne comprends pas comment tu peux d'un côté appliquer un sort de soin à la forme physique et voir les soins répercutés sur la forme astrale, et de l'autre ne pas pouvoir affecter la forme astrale en ciblant le corps ; la seule explication que je voie, ce serait que le sort de soin n'affecte pas la forme astrale, mais que ses conséquences le font, mais dans ce cas il doit en aller de même pour d'autres sorts. Et, est-ce que ça signifie qu'un sort ou pouvoir mana ne peut pas être lancé sur un corps "vide" ? est-ce qu'on doit le considérer comme une cible non vivante ?

[gargaM0NK]

I asked this on DumpShock and got some good discussion, but nothing harder than "my interpretation / opinion", so I'm going to see if I can find something more official here:

What circumstances prevent a mage from continuing to sustain a spell?

From page 184 (20A edition core)

Many spells can be sustained for as long as the magician is willing to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell’s Duration.

also from p184

If the gamemaster chooses, certain circumstances may threaten to break a magician’s concentration while she is sustaining a spell, such as
taking damage, full defense, dropping prone, and so on.

I take this to mean that in situations where the magician is unable to concentrate (going to sleep for the night, for instance, or otherwise going unconcious), the sustained spell dies.

What about sustaining spells while being possessed? If my mage casts increased reflexes on the Street Sam, and then fails his int+will roll to fight off an enemy task spirit, does the Street Sam stay boosted, or am I unable to sustain it?

From SM p102

The mind of the vessel remains in whatever state it was when possession began; if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness locked inside its own body for the duration.

Does this "state of mind" of the vessel magician include concentrating on sustaining the spell? If so, can I cast increase reflexes on myself, have a spirit possess me, and have the spirit romp around with a boosted 4IP? Or does my physical mask spell drop upon possession?

Since (from SM p101)

the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration.

Does the spirit take a -2 penalty from sustaining the spell?

Under counterspelling sustained effects (20A p185)

Counterspelling also allows a magician to dispel a sustained or quickened spell, canceling its effect. The character must be on the same plane, must be able to perceive the spell she is targeting, and must use a Complex Action.

Does this imply that sustaining too needs to be done from the same plane as the spell effect (so Astral perception / projection might disrupt physical spells), or simply contrast to countering spells as they are cast, where the magician can counter spells even if (s)he cannot perceive them.

Under channeling (SM p54)

Through channeling, a magician who was willingly possessed can find a balance between the two minds (the spirit’s and her own) occupying her body and achieve greater control. The Channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power (see p. 101). Control is still shared, however, and the magician is unable to tap the possessing spirit’s powers without expending a service.

So it seems like under normal possession rules, we have this two headed monster, where the spirit head controls the boosted physical attributes, the mental attributes, and the special attributes, while the other (vessel head) has his mind, the "impotent witness", which cannot access or control any of the above-mentioned. Channeling seems like it brings together these two heads, so that the channeling vessel head can offer it's skills and access it's own Magic/Edge.

I'm still wondering why the un-channeled vessel head couldn't continue to concentrate on the sustained spell "in the state it was in when the possession began", with perhaps a concentration check.

What about with a focus?  (20A p199)

...a focus continues to operate as long as it
is on the owner’s person, be it worn, carried, hand-held, or in a pocket or pouch

I saw no clarifications from the SR4 FAQ

Thanks in advance
--gargaM0NK

[anotherJack]

Thanks for asking on Dumpshock.
No answers for every question, but some.

From page 184 (20A edition core)

Many spells can be sustained for as long as the magician is willing to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell’s Duration.

also from p184

If the gamemaster chooses, certain circumstances may threaten to break a magician’s concentration while she is sustaining a spell, such as
taking damage, full defense, dropping prone, and so on.

I take this to mean that in situations where the magician is unable to concentrate (going to sleep for the night, for instance, or otherwise going unconcious), the sustained spell dies.

Okay if he goes unconscious or sleeps, but if he stays conscious, he can sustain the spell : he has a test to pass through when disturbed, described in the core rulebook.

From SM p102

The mind of the vessel remains in whatever state it was when possession began; if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness locked inside its own body for the duration.

Does this "state of mind" of the vessel magician include concentrating on sustaining the spell? If so, can I cast increase reflexes on myself, have a spirit possess me, and have the spirit romp around with a boosted 4IP? Or does my physical mask spell drop upon possession?

Assuming you can sustain a spell while possessed - why not -, think you need to cast increase reflex on the spirit, not on yourself, or he won't take benefit of it. So you must cast it in astral, sustain it, then let him possess you while still sustaining - GM may ask you a test to sustain it as if you were "disturbed" by the possession.
I think only physical spells might be cast on you, and sustained on your body, others should be cast on the spirit.

Under counterspelling sustained effects (20A p185)

Counterspelling also allows a magician to dispel a sustained or quickened spell, canceling its effect. The character must be on the same plane, must be able to perceive the spell she is targeting, and must use a Complex Action.

Does this imply that sustaining too needs to be done from the same plane as the spell effect (so Astral perception / projection might disrupt physical spells), or simply contrast to countering spells as they are cast, where the magician can counter spells even if (s)he cannot perceive them.

Second option. Conditions for dispelling a spell are the same than for casting it. See the target, same plane, and so. Conditions for sustaining are less restrictive - for example, you can clearly by the rule sustain a spell without staying in range of sight.
Doesn't mean a magician CAN sustain a spell while projecting, but as before, doesn't mean he can't.

[gargaM0NK]

I appreciate the reply.  Actually:

Assuming you can sustain a spell while possessed - why not -

my question is about that assumption.  I've cited the reasons I think it is possible, but the book isn't explicit.  In fact, the majority opinion of dumpshock seemed to be that you cannot sustain while possessed.

[Mooncrow]

I appreciate the reply.  Actually:

Assuming you can sustain a spell while possessed - why not -

my question is about that assumption.  I've cited the reasons I think it is possible, but the book isn't explicit.  In fact, the majority opinion of dumpshock seemed to be that you cannot sustain while possessed.

I tend to agree with that, personally.  You effectively lose control over everything but your own thoughts.  And magic is more than just a mental process.

[gargaM0NK]

magic is more than just a mental process.

Agreed.  Magic involves knowledge of spells, having a special attribute (magic), spending karma on spells/initiation, and money on formulas.

For sustaining, however,

From page 184 (20A edition core)

Many spells can be sustained for as long as the magician is willing to concentrate on the spell, as noted in the spell’s Duration.

And concentration, so far as I know, is precisely a mental process.