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More TM clarification and Ideas

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norskface

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« on: <04-19-15/0706:31> »
Hey, I have some more TM questions, I hit on…
Im not sure, if they are already discussed. If so, it would be really kind to address me to those topics. 

Firstly I would like to ask, which programs you would take, if you submerge.
There are many nice ones boosting your Dice-pool for resisting damage. But I guess they don't really work for TM like I would hope.
Basically all damage TMs take is some kind of Biofeedback. But I guess that's not intended that you can than just pick up Biofeedback Filter etc…
If you have an different point of view on this, just let me hear.
What Im actually looking for is some higher Dice pool to resist Drain, but on my reading it doesn't work on this.
So which Programs would you pick up and why?

Another question is about the Sprite power Electronic Storm. Its really strong especially if sustained.
I just wonder, if it uses up a task per Action it is sustained/ if it uses 1 task to start this power and one to sustain it until the target is Bricked or if it really only uses 1 task.
The last one is how Im reading it, but than its really Really REALLY powerful!!!

In the end I have a suggestion for a possible Houseroule submergian:
“You and your Sprites share all marks you gain on a target.”

It just came to my mind and I find it really cool, since I hate to lose an registered Sprite, just to be with me together in a host. What are your thoughts?

Raven2049

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« Reply #1 on: <04-19-15/0941:01> »
Quote
Hey, I have some more TM questions, I hit on…
Im not sure, if they are already discussed. If so, it would be really kind to address me to those topics. 

Firstly I would like to ask, which programs you would take, if you submerge.
TM's dont get programs when they submerge they get echo's (just a wording problem here)

Quote
There are many nice ones boosting your Dice-pool for resisting damage. But I guess they don't really work for TM like I would hope.
Basically all damage TMs take is some kind of Biofeedback. But I guess that's not intended that you can than just pick up Biofeedback Filter etc…
If you have an different point of view on this, just let me hear.
again a wording issue here, TM's dont take drain they take fading damage (arguably same thing i know but its different per se and if were talking about TM's lets not confuse people with magic) also, as per CRB p251:
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Your living persona’s Device Rating is equal to your
Resonance. Your Matrix attributes are calculated from
your Mental attributes as listed on the Living Persona
table. You cannot reconfigure your living persona or
run programs, as those are abilities unique to commlinks and cyberdecks. You are not a device, so you
cannot be a slave or master, nor can you be part of a
PAN or WAN.
you cannot run programs on your living persona, so the programs listed in the programs page on 245 will not work for you if you are only using your living persona, you could however be a TM that uses a deck for hacking (pointless but meh) and have those programs on there. BUT you cannot use both your Resonance skills (read TM abilities) while you are using a deck because as stated in a further section in the CRB:
Quote
You can use a commlink or cyberdeck if you like. A lot of
technomancers do in order to hide their abilities. If you
use a persona on a commlink or deck, you can’t use your
Resonance abilities. That only works when you’re using
your living persona, and since you can only use one persona at a time—well, you get the idea.

Quote
What Im actually looking for is some higher Dice pool to resist Drain, but on my reading it doesn't work on this.
So which Programs would you pick up and why?
as stated above there are no programs that can be used to do this however once you submerge you have a few options open to you via Echos:
  • Neurofilter: You get a +1 dice pool bonus to resist biofeedback damage. This echo may be taken twice.
  • Resonance [Program]: This echo lets you copy the effects of one common or hacking program (p. 245). Each time you take this echo, you must specify which program you are mimicking. You can take this echo more than once, each time for a different program.
the Resonance [Program] echo would allow you to use the Biofeedback filter program on p 245 like you mentioned, but that's only after you submerge.

Quote
Another question is about the Sprite power Electronic Storm. Its really strong especially if sustained.
I just wonder, if it uses up a task per Action it is sustained/ if it uses 1 task to start this power and one to sustain it until the target is Bricked or if it really only uses 1 task.
The last one is how Im reading it, but than its really Really REALLY powerful!!!
my understanding of it is based on how spirits work, its only one service from a spirit to place movement on a group and keep it up until the magician says otherwise. so i dont see any reason why the same wouldn't be true for TM's when compiling a sprite. 1 task to order it to start electron storm on a single or group of devices and keep it sustained until you tell it to stop.
and actually i found basis for that CRB p254:
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If a sprite uses a sustained power for you, sustaining that power doesn't count against further tasks unless you change it in some way, like switching targets.

Quote
In the end I have a suggestion for a possible Houserule submersion:
“You and your Sprites share all marks you gain on a target.”
my thoughts on this are, since the sprite shares your resonance signature i would think that it would share your marks. and i think (looking into this) the same is true for agents, they share the marks gained by the decker that got them. so i dont know if that houserule is necessary

Triskavanski

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« Reply #2 on: <04-19-15/1031:20> »
I wouldn't get any of the programs too early on in submersion. The bonuses are far too weak to really justify them.. Instead I'd go for the initiative increase or mind over machine first. Then go for some of the more unique programs, that do a little more than just give a +1 value. Biofeedback is pretty good on that one.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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living

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« Reply #3 on: <04-19-15/1330:45> »
It really depends on your playstyle and your GM. I love mind over machine but to use it decend you have to build your char around it.

Overclocking is really good if you get one more initiative pass. Just make the math, if it would increase your average intiative from 24 to 27 it's not really worth imho.

An increase of your living persona really depends on your playstyle. If you use a lot of theading to improve your stats it could really backfire. And rising a matrix attribut by 1 point isnt such a big deal. One dice more on sleaze is 1/3 hit. But if you really play the stealth game and your goal is never to be detected, take it! Add exploit to it and stealth.

If you like to tank all the ic in the host meanwhile you hack your paydata, take improved firewall, biofeedback filter, shell and armor.

You are the matrix bully who really likes to smash hacker and devices? Take biofeedback, decryption, increase attack, fork, hammer,

The most utility you will get from browse. You double the searches you can do in a given time. you dont need to stay as long in a host.

The most fun maybe wrapper.

But it all depends on your char, your stats and your playstyle.

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <04-19-15/1440:32> »
I never fully understood why the echo NeuroFilter would only give you a dice pool bonus of 1 dice when soaking biofeedback damage and not 2 dice.

- The Resonance Biofeedback Filter echo cost as much but give you 2 dice for the same thing.
- The Firewall Upgrade echo cost as much and give you +1 limit to disarm data bomb and jack out while link locked as well as +1 dice when defending against attacks in addition to the NeuroFilter benefit of +1 dice to soak biofeedback damage.

I would pick other echos rather than Resonance [Program] (getting a control rig for just a few karma and without spending the resources or essence is really neat on a character that have the ability to puppeteer the enemy owner rigger of a vehicle to emergency jack out of the matrix and then jump in her self. Unless you are also a face or leader then you probably would -at least karma wise- be a lot better off increasing your attack attribute by infusing it or with the Attack upgrade echo rather than increasing your charisma attribute), but for the sake of argument:

- Signal Scrub (constant 2 points of noise reduction is king on a character that don't have access to physical direct connection with slaved devices and will probably not have the physical attributes nor skill set to physically follow the strike team into the hostile facility)
- Fork (marking two devices or files or attacking two icons at the same time - without splitting your dice pool)
- Baby Monitor (quality of life to always know your OS without spending an illegal Sleaze action [which will potentially generate even more OS] in order to find out is a rather powerful ability on a character that might mark, snoop and trace multiple devices+personas over many hours without jacking out and plan to repeat thread low ranks of cleaner to compensate).

living

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« Reply #5 on: <04-19-15/1502:03> »
- Signal Scrub (constant 2 points of noise reduction is king on a character that don't have access to physical direct connection with slaved devices and will probably not have the physical attributes nor skill set to physically follow the strike team into the hostile facility)

Well, we play with the ability to skinlink in my group. Otherwise the drawback would be too huge (and it's still huge). And this skinlink works with FRESNEL FABRIC (Run and Gun). This makes noise kinda impactless (except you are hacking around the globe). But on the other hand, a hacker has so much options for noise reduction, that noise would in the most cases only cripple the TM.

living

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« Reply #6 on: <04-19-15/1506:37> »
btw:

Mind over Machine: You get the benefit of a Rating 1 control rig. (p. 258 core rules).

 (The rig)It also comes with a universal data connector and about a meter of retractable cable (it’s like getting a free datajack). (p. 265 core rules)

I guess the echo gives you the benefit of a retractable wlan-cable and a free wlan datajack ;)

Xenon

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« Reply #7 on: <04-19-15/1545:17> »
No ;)

living

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« Reply #8 on: <04-19-15/1547:45> »
But... it's in the rules!!!! .... ;)

Novocrane

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« Reply #9 on: <04-19-15/1745:04> »
Mind Over Machine gives you the benefits of a Control Rig, not the physical accoutrements. You don't lose 1.0 essence, sprout cables, or mysteriously find that you've grown an amount of cyberware inside your skull. You do get to act like you have a fully functional control rig - of which the benefits include +Rating to Vehicle Skill Tests, Handling, and Speed, -Rating to Vehicle Test Thresholds, and being able to physically connect to devices through their universal data connector.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #10 on: <04-19-15/1816:48> »
Only the benefits of one. Doesn't say you take any of the negatives.

Even so, its things like this that plague the technomancer, Living could fairly easily argue you become part Avatar, even if that really isn't the case here, due to its open endedness of wording.

Even so, a Datajack isn't all that bad of a thing for a Technomancer to pick up, actually. A Technomancer, Imo at least, should set aside 1 point of essence for bio/cyberware to really hammer it home. At least right now.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <04-19-15/1857:38> »
the direct connection exploit is mostly there so you can build a primary b&e expert that is also a hybrid decker on the side
- a dedicated decker or technomancer can probably breach a host anyway
(archives however..... that is another ballpark altogether, but a direct connection will not help against that anyway)

if you are up against a high rated host, edge the roll to get that first mark on the first slaved device + host you run into (or better yet, hack it a few hours before the run even starts and keep the ripples of your illegal action away from GOD by threading a static veil). after that you can enter and exit the host and be considered directly connected to all devices slaved to it - without using a physical cable.

norskface

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« Reply #12 on: <04-20-15/0840:54> »
Thank you guys for the help.

May by my wording I let you all feel, like Im a total Newb, but actually I was following most of the Threads of Technomancers and Hacking stuff, also if I was not involved in the discussions there.
So of course I was talking about the Echo of getting a Program and I do know its all not that good like getting another Dice for Initiative…
But I was looking at them by the intention of finding ways to soak my Fading.
I guess its not possible with the programs, but while reading, I started to really wonder, how these Dice to reduce Matrix Damage or Biofeedback Damage work for TM, since its always kind of Biofeedback.

On the Topic of sharing your Marks with your Sprits:
I thought I was following this topic already a few times here and the overall conclusion was, that they have to gain their own, since they have an own Persona etc.
If Im wrong, I would be happy about it, but I would need more arguments ;)

So may if you like, you can just post if you ever took any Programs by Echo and how high you ever submurged, before it got too expensive.

Top Dog

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« Reply #13 on: <04-20-15/1005:06> »
I never fully understood why the echo NeuroFilter would only give you a dice pool bonus of 1 dice when soaking biofeedback damage and not 2 dice.

- The Resonance Biofeedback Filter echo cost as much but give you 2 dice for the same thing.
- The Firewall Upgrade echo cost as much and give you +1 limit to disarm data bomb and jack out while link locked as well as +1 dice when defending against attacks in addition to the NeuroFilter benefit of +1 dice to soak biofeedback damage.
Wha. The magical equivalent gives you +Initiate Grade, and mages don't have the crushing drain/fading values that TM's have.
[Edit] Ignore the bit above, I am an idiot.

Poor technomancers.

You could take all four, I guess (Neurofilter twice). But yeah that's a bit weird.
« Last Edit: <04-20-15/1046:02> by Top Dog »

norskface

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« Reply #14 on: <04-20-15/1030:40> »
I never fully understood why the echo NeuroFilter would only give you a dice pool bonus of 1 dice when soaking biofeedback damage and not 2 dice.

- The Resonance Biofeedback Filter echo cost as much but give you 2 dice for the same thing.
- The Firewall Upgrade echo cost as much and give you +1 limit to disarm data bomb and jack out while link locked as well as +1 dice when defending against attacks in addition to the NeuroFilter benefit of +1 dice to soak biofeedback damage.
Wha. The magical equivalent gives you +Initiate Grade, and mages don't have the crushing drain/fading values that TM's have.

Poor technomancers.

You could take all four, I guess (Neurofilter twice). But yeah that's a bit weird.

So you want to say, that Fading is also Biofeedback damage?