[Top Dog]

It's a difficult problem, prismite. People still want to play their characters as they are. If you're offered a mission that your character would normally not take, being forced to take it because otherwise you're "being a dick" isn't fun. In fact, one could argue that, at that point, it's the GM that violated the social contract by offering the mission in the first place.

I do agree that, in general, people should just agree to the mission for the sake of the game. But that does introduce some oddities that need to be addressed. We had a discussion about that in-group a while back. Is it fair, for example, to penalize players for choosing to run a mission (for example, with loyalty reductions or notoriety)? After all, the characters choose to take the run. Except that the players didn't get a choice in the matter, since, in practice, they're forced to go along with the run - so penalizing them for it is unfair.

In the end it's certainly not as simple as always having to go along with the GM, or conversely, of always being free to decline a run.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Which is where flexibility in a GM comes in.  So you offered the PCs a very restrictive run, like blinkdog said.  The players and their characters looked at it, saw all of the fantastic and nasty ways it could screw them over, and declined the run.  What's a GM to do?

Well, you take a step back from the situation, and reconsider what it is you (the GM) and you (the Johnson) are trying to get done.  You-the-GM wants to run a good game; that's one in which everyone involved (you and the players) have fun.  You-the-Johnson want a target extracted from the prison.  So reset the night, and this time, instead of setting crap up ahead of time, have the Johnson available to generate methods of ingress - but the PCs have to give him information that'll pass a high-level SIN / Security check (essentially the same thing).  This is a quiet trap in and of itself, but in this case it allows the players the flexibility they need to get the job done.

Players are very much like the shadowrunners they play - ninety percent of the time, they'll see a trap coming a mile off, and work to avoid it.  Railroading them into it makes for pissed-off players, and is a major dick move by a GM.  It's so much easier to let them figure their own way into a trap.

[Glyph]

It's better to have flexibility as a GM than to have an always-on metarule that the PCs take whatever job is offered.  Because then the players will blame that GM for any betrayals, or any other circumstances that don't go their way.  Shadowrunners are supposed to get some offers that are too risky, or go agaist their principles, and turn them down.  Johnsons are supposed to act mainly in their parent company's self-interest, and sometimes be treacherous.

Sure, some metagaming is good, such as keeping a nearly-useless character around because the player is a bud, but mainly comes to the game to socialize, and doesn't grok the setting that well.  Or taking a boring-sounding job, because the comparatively newbie GM obviously spent a lot of time on it, and hasn't mastered the knack of improvising yet.  But in this particular case, the GM was demanding too much of the players - that they give up everything they need to do their normal specialties, to go unarmed and vulnerable into a dangerous environment, at the demand of a Johnson they had never even met before.

[NovaHot1]

1. True. Although that prison removing them instead of disabling them depends on the GM.

2. If only half a runner team accepts a mission, that's still unprofessional. It should really be an all or nothing response, or that team isn't going to survive very long.

3. It doesn't take low intelligence to have wild ideas. It definitely takes low intelligence to believe that, as, in character, you are playing a hardened criminal (exceptions go to street level games, I'd say) that would have a general knowledge of the consequences of their actions for something like that.

1) In a way, the former is a GM that actually knows the setting and the latter is a GM who just picked up their first SR book the day of the game and can't be arsed to read the setting chapters before the game.

2) Untrue. While there are some actual teams out there in the setting, those are actually the minority.

1)Not really. It can depend on both the GM's style as well as the style of the game, whether they are going for Pink Mohawk or Black Trenchcoat.

2) Very true. Despite what canon might suggest, it's vital to the actual rpg dynamic for a tabletop group to be a team instead of a gathering of individual Lone Wolf McLonewolfeypants. It's up to the GM and the players to make this make sense in a canon sense.

Also, you need to realize that sometimes the players just don't want to do your run, be it an IC or OOC reason. You should also have some sort of "backup-run" for that, in case something like this happens again.

I have to disagree with this.

I'm not a perfect GM by any means or standards, let me announce that openly (not that there was ever any doubt). On my forums I have 3 rules posted that are the foundation of everything I believe in, RPG-wise:

1. Wheaton's Law: DONT BE A DICK. People underestimate just how far this rule stretches.
2. Trust the players.
3. Trust the GM.

In essence, if I spend the desk time to write you a mission, saying something like "I'm too pretty" or "nope, not the kind of run I'm interested in" is really a violation of Rules 1 & 3. I wish I had the link to the original article of which I extracted these rules, but the long and short of it is that sometimes you (as a player) have to do things with your character that are "out of character" because staying "in character" would force you to do prick things, usually agaisnt your own teammates. It violates rule 3 because trust needs to be mutual. If you dont trust me, I cant trust you. If I have a habit of screwing you over in missions because I'm too heavy handed or just outright evil, then *I* violated rule 3, not you.

I dont disagree that there should have been more involvement from the players in the setup of this mission, though. As for the claim that this is low-pay ... well ... that is going to vary from table to table and should vary (IMO, anyway) on the current total karma of the character. Higher total individuals will want more money than a new group of aspiring runners.
[/quote

Pretty much all of this.

[ShadowcatX]

If the pcs have no say so in rather or not they accept a job, why go through the farce of acting like their opinion matters? Just tell them they already accepted the job, and are already locked up. Or better yert, why have players at all?

[Vibral]

As a runner in one of Prismite's games recently where myself and another member of the team (initially) left the discussion with the Johnson and more or less declined the run I can attest that there were quite a few in game reasons why we refused the job. It smelled like a setup from a mile away, had VERY little information to go off of and (in my and the other runner's opinion) was underpaid.

We (myself and the other runner who bailed) told the rest of the team to, "call us if anything changes". Which left it open for them to do the initial investigation (in which several of the other characters "shine" or at least create horribly awkward situations) and dig up the information to get an in character reason why we should get involved on this. Once we got the call/text of " Oh hey turns out this might involve Werewolves or Vampires" both myself and the other member who had initially bailed make a quick stop by home depot and a local pawn shop for some anti-mystical baddies equipment and headed to meet up with the rest of the group. This is because myself and the other player agreed that we don't want to go home for the day nor break the rules we as a group have agreed to, but IN CHARACTER we would have never accepted the run at face value and needed the extra info to want to be involved.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I will say that starting 'in media res' - in the middle of the action - can be a very, very fun way of executing a run, so long as you have flexible-enough players.

[Sterling]

As a runner in one of Prismite's games recently where myself and another member of the team (initially) left the discussion with the Johnson and more or less declined the run I can attest that there were quite a few in game reasons why we refused the job. It smelled like a setup from a mile away, had VERY little information to go off of and (in my and the other runner's opinion) was underpaid.

So, to be clear, this was not the run in the initial post, correct?

As long as there were justifiable reasons for a character to refuse a job then that shouldn't be a problem.

We (myself and the other runner who bailed) told the rest of the team to, "call us if anything changes". Which left it open for them to do the initial investigation (in which several of the other characters "shine" or at least create horribly awkward situations) and dig up the information to get an in character reason why we should get involved on this. Once we got the call/text of " Oh hey turns out this might involve Werewolves or Vampires" both myself and the other member who had initially bailed make a quick stop by home depot and a local pawn shop for some anti-mystical baddies equipment and headed to meet up with the rest of the group. This is because myself and the other player agreed that we don't want to go home for the day nor break the rules we as a group have agreed to, but IN CHARACTER we would have never accepted the run at face value and needed the extra info to want to be involved.

Now this I do have a problem with.  Did the two of you feel you should still be paid despite refusing the job?  If so, why?  The Johnson obviously came to an agreement with those runners who accepted the job.  Did you expect the Johnson to pay you as though you had completed the whole job, or did you expect your fellow runners to pay out of their share?

[Vibral]

As a runner in one of Prismite's games recently where myself and another member of the team (initially) left the discussion with the Johnson and more or less declined the run I can attest that there were quite a few in game reasons why we refused the job. It smelled like a setup from a mile away, had VERY little information to go off of and (in my and the other runner's opinion) was underpaid.

So, to be clear, this was not the run in the initial post, correct?
 

This is correct. It was another run than the OP's run.

As long as there were justifiable reasons for a character to refuse a job then that shouldn't be a problem.

We (myself and the other runner who bailed) told the rest of the team to, "call us if anything changes". Which left it open for them to do the initial investigation (in which several of the other characters "shine" or at least create horribly awkward situations) and dig up the information to get an in character reason why we should get involved on this. Once we got the call/text of " Oh hey turns out this might involve Werewolves or Vampires" both myself and the other member who had initially bailed make a quick stop by home depot and a local pawn shop for some anti-mystical baddies equipment and headed to meet up with the rest of the group. This is because myself and the other player agreed that we don't want to go home for the day nor break the rules we as a group have agreed to, but IN CHARACTER we would have never accepted the run at face value and needed the extra info to want to be involved.

Now this I do have a problem with.  Did the two of you feel you should still be paid despite refusing the job?  If so, why?  The Johnson obviously came to an agreement with those runners who accepted the job.  Did you expect the Johnson to pay you as though you had completed the whole job, or did you expect your fellow runners to pay out of their share?

Well the answer to this is complicated. Technically myself and the other runner never told the Johnson no. What we did do was leave after a private discussion with the other runners present and let them finish the talks with the Johnson.

At no time did the other runners tell the Johnson that myself and the other runner had chosen not to accept the job.

In addition to this the only requirement for the job was to identify the location of his daughter and if possible return her. Which in all fairness we were involved in and did complete. From the Johnson's point of view my character and the other that went with me could have been getting an early start or hitting up our contacts while the rest of the team finished the negotiations. 

Also since myself and the other runner in question jumped back into the run at the Recon stage (immediately after they figured out she had been frequenting Werewolf/Vampire bars/clubs) we didn't really miss much.

[ShadowcatX]

I will say that starting 'in media res' - in the middle of the action - can be a very, very fun way of executing a run, so long as you have flexible-enough players.

I've done that before as well (in other game systems), but you want to do it with something the players and characters are comfortable with.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Which, really, you can't necessarily do - because often an in media res start is meant to put them in the middle of something they are not going to be comfortable with.  "What do you mean, there are six TIE fighters an an Imperial Dreadnaught on our tail??  I always XYZ before I leave a planet, so there's no way that would happen!!"  In media res is almost always meant for tight, scary, 'how the hell did we get into this situation?!?' events - which is why you have to have a good group in order to do it.

[ScytheKnight]

Which is why you don't come in just as the dreck hits the rotary air circulation device... you start it with things all going according to plan.. THEN everything goes to hell in a handcart.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

You should go back and look at all the stuff that opens in media res - much of it opens up in the middle of fan/fecal interaction.  The Odyssey, Odysseus is in prison and his jailor (Calypso) refuses to let him go.John Wick - the titular character climbs out of a battered-up vehicle, falls over, and apparently dies.  Limitless - main character is on a ledge about to jump as Bad Guys cut their way into his secure penthouse.  Star Wars - Leia's ship is getting the crap blown out of it.  Etc. etc.  You can afterwards go back and do the 'how did we get here' thing, but that's more a tell-thing instead of a show-thing when it comes to RPGs.

The best way this has been done in Shadowrun was an adventure (2E, I think?) in which the PCs wake up with what can only be described as laes hangovers, and are hunted people, and have to figure out WTF from very, very patchy memories.

[ScytheKnight]

Hmmm... I must concede the point there, well put.