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Rambling questions on SINs

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #30 on: <01-29-18/1341:54> »
That comes down to a catch-22, doesn't it? If you rent your place with your real SIN, then Knight Errant or Lone Star or whoever law enforcement is contracted to in the area is going to know where you live if they get any forensic evidence. If you rent it using a fake SIN, then they'll know where you live when they catching you broadcasting it during a firefight, or are we supposed to turn it off shortly before a firefight? It's been a while since I played and I forgot how the rhythm of a run goes.

That's why it's conventional wisdom that you not only run silent (when you're on Shadowruns), you also have LOTS of fake SINs :)  You know, a "Mr Totally not a Shadowrunner, just a real quiet guy" for your rent.  You never, ever broadcast that SIN except for making lifestyle payments so that you minimize chances of it getting burned.  You have another sin for being "on the Job", like "Punchy McCopshooter" for "broadcasting" while you're doing obviously illegal shadowrunner drek anyway, and being busted for no SIN is the least of your concerns at the moment. All it has to be is Rating 1 to be broadcasting, and you can go through those as fast as you go through pairs of socks if necessary.  Yet another SIN you broadcast for while you're out and about on downtime.  Maybe another SIN you use while negotiating with Mr Johnson and/or doing legwork (stuff you do while on a Shadowrun but isn't inherently blatantly illegal).  Certainly extra SINs for your bolt hole lifestyles in case something DOES go wrong and Lone Star is surveiling your primary lifestyle.
« Last Edit: <01-29-18/1353:21> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #31 on: <01-29-18/1351:38> »
I see, and if one has a real SIN it's best used out and about and on downtime. Still, paying in credstick wherever is a more important security practice, no?
« Last Edit: <01-29-18/1353:12> by Ghost Rigger »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #32 on: <01-29-18/1356:22> »
I see, and if one has a real SIN it's best used out and about and on downtime. Still, paying in credstick wherever is a more important security practice, no?

I would say it depends on how your GM is running the game.  On one hand never ever using your real SIN really limits the odds that its existence will bite you, on the other a SIN that just exists out there without any income or expenses could flag some government agency to look closer.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #33 on: <01-29-18/1404:28> »
Those would be easy enough to fake. Put some money onto the SIN from a credstick, take some money from the SIN and put it on another credstick and bam! Now the SIN has income and expenses, unless your GM insists that Big Brother has algorithms too smart to be fooled by that, in which case the Shadowbank probably offers a service that can fool those algorithms.
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Mollari

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« Reply #34 on: <01-29-18/1644:47> »
We have a similar ruling regarding lifestyles that anyone can have any kind of lifestyle, it's just about where. You can have a pimped out warehouse in a lawless territory and pay gang protection money.I'm loving all your ideas about the consequences of burned SINs, and you were right about groceries etc. being a cost incorporated into the lifestyle. I guess my point along that was that your SIN has to be maintained in a way that emulates life. Your SIN goes out for dinner, travels etc. So if your runner didn't broadcast that SIN for a number of months that'd be a problem right?

1) I always thought the biometric information on fake SINs were yours, and you had your fixer and manufacturer have it match to you, though I guess it could be the other way around if you just buy an identity and have a bunch of bio material... Which is scary.

2) What sort of biometric testing would you do for someone with cyber eyes and arms?

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #35 on: <01-29-18/1655:29> »
We have a similar ruling regarding lifestyles that anyone can have any kind of lifestyle, it's just about where. You can have a pimped out warehouse in a lawless territory and pay gang protection money.I'm loving all your ideas about the consequences of burned SINs, and you were right about groceries etc. being a cost incorporated into the lifestyle. I guess my point along that was that your SIN has to be maintained in a way that emulates life. Your SIN goes out for dinner, travels etc. So if your runner didn't broadcast that SIN for a number of months that'd be a problem right?
Like I said, the Shadowbank could probably emulate life on your SIN for you. It's all part of the money-laundering scheme....

Quote
1) I always thought the biometric information on fake SINs were yours, and you had your fixer and manufacturer have it match to you, though I guess it could be the other way around if you just buy an identity and have a bunch of bio material... Which is scary.
I don't know if this is exaggeration or an old piece of lore, but I've heard people say that an R1 fake SIN might have the biometrics of a chicken. So, no, it's not your biometric information on the fake SIN.

Quote
2) What sort of biometric testing would you do for someone with cyber eyes and arms?
On the most basic level, you check height, metatype, ethnic group, sex and other such basics. At the high end, you check genetic material, and somewhere in between you do facial scans.
« Last Edit: <01-29-18/1658:22> by Ghost Rigger »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #36 on: <01-29-18/1658:52> »
....

1) I always thought the biometric information on fake SINs were yours, and you had your fixer and manufacturer have it match to you, though I guess it could be the other way around if you just buy an identity and have a bunch of bio material... Which is scary.

2) What sort of biometric testing would you do for someone with cyber eyes and arms?

1: If you're fortunate (or paying enough money) you can get a fake SIN that happens to have biometrics that are close/semi close to your character's.  The gender, height, weight, age and so on happen to match.  But that's because they happen to match, not because they were set that way to match yours.  As described on pages 363-364, when fake SINs are created (as opposed to just being legit SINs being sold/used illegally) they're maintained for some long period of time to give them that weight of believability that can't be faked by being created immediately.  There's even the given example of a low-rating SIN simply using the DNA of a chicken for its biometrics.  And then there's
Quote from: SR5 Core Rulebook
Biometric data associated with
a high-Rating SIN will be from a real person with the
same sex and nationality as the purchaser with (if the
extra fee is paid) matching organic samples available
(blood, skin cells, hair—just don’t ask where they came
from).

2: With retinal and fingerprint data not available due to cyber replacements, there are a host of other biometrics available.  Facial recognition, voice pattern analysis, DNA sampling, etc based on the rating of the SIN checker are all possibilities.  For devious ideas about possible biometrics, check this link out.
« Last Edit: <01-29-18/1704:59> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #37 on: <01-29-18/1718:05> »
The chicken thing was in SR5? I could've sworn that it was either an older edition or just someone using hyperbole on the internet.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #38 on: <01-29-18/1720:18> »
The chicken thing was in SR5? I could've sworn that it was either an older edition or just someone using hyperbole on the internet.

Quote
The amount of time and care taken in creating a
fake SIN is represented by its Rating. A low Rating SIN
consists of only the most basic information—such as
the SIN number itself. Related information such as biometric
data will likely be missing or obviously false if
checked (“Hey, this is the DNA of a chicken ...”). Other
issues may be the consistency, or fit, of the identity to
the individual. If a runner just needs an identity—any
identity—right now, they may end up purchasing a SIN
for a ten-year-old Nigerian girl.

I can't say it wasn't first in earlier editions, but it's certainly in the current one :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #39 on: <01-29-18/1722:14> »
Wow, and between the two I was leaning towards "someone using hyperbole on the internet".
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #40 on: <01-29-18/1724:07> »
Wow, and between the two I was leaning towards "someone using hyperbole on the internet".

I've made it tradition that all my rating 1 fake SIN identities are "Some Nigerian 10 year old girl".
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #41 on: <01-29-18/1728:30> »
So, what happens when you try to buy a R1 fake for a ten year old Nigerian girl? Or is it the case that a R1 fake SIN can be sold as an R3 fake SIN to the right person?
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #42 on: <01-29-18/1735:04> »
Probably a bit more of the latter.  Another 10 year old girl of similar physical appearance could probably get away with it being higher than a R1 fake SIN than a 30 year old 200kg troll sammie could.

In actual game play, there's a slight disconnect between the fluff and the rules themselves.  You don't have to keep track of whether or not a given fake SIN has chicken DNA or no DNA at all or 10 year old Nigerian Girl DNA.  Those details are all abstracted into the "Rating".  The chart on page 364 gives players and GMs an idea of how invasive a SIN check is based on the rating of the system doing the checking (lending relevance to the necessity of carrying around DNA samples for high rating fake SINs, for example).  But the rules text on the same page also tells you the check is abstracted.  Technically at the game table (as opposed to in-universe) all that matters are the raw numbers: Device rating vs Fake SIN rating.

But if you add in some roleplaying or theorycrafting based on the superfluous info based on the chart saying what details the checker checks, you might reasonably suppose a forged SIN created with chicken DNA would pass a check based on whether or not there's DNA on file, but obviously the PC could not provide a sample that matches the fake SIN.. unless he's got samples of that specific chicken used to forge the SIN that is...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #43 on: <01-29-18/1754:45> »
It's interesting to think, though, that all fake SINs below R4 cost the same to make and how much they sell for depends on how much they coincidentally match their buyer. It has certain....implications, I think, about the market for low-end fake SINs and the sales tactics used there.

But if you add in some roleplaying or theorycrafting based on the superfluous info based on the chart saying what details the checker checks, you might reasonably suppose a forged SIN created with chicken DNA would pass a check based on whether or not there's DNA on file, but obviously the PC could not provide a sample that matches the fake SIN.. unless he's got samples of that specific chicken used to forge the SIN that is...
The flavor quote makes me think that a SIN with chicken DNA would be rejected before you would even be asked to provide a biometric sample, or even when it was a matter of whether or not there was DNA on file at all. After all, it's easier to keep a chicken around for biometric samples than it is another metahuman, so I suspect at this point in the arms race someone's already got caught pulling that trick and in response everyone now checks to make sure the DNA on record is metahuman.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #44 on: <01-29-18/1805:17> »
Well according to the examples/fluff based on the SIN verification systems, you're not even testing the PC's DNA against the SIN until you hit a Rating 5 system.  if you've got a crappy low rating SIN (such as one that uses Chicken DNA), a Rating 5 system is gonna suss it out as fake even if you can provide a matching DNA sample, the dice will almost guarantee it :D

The mathematics of the rules to me say there's no reason to buy a rating 2 or 3 fake SIN.  Either save money and buy a 1, or get a 4 and be fairly safe from anything that doesn't go to the extreme of taking biometric samples for verification.  And get at least one fake sin of a really high value when your connections and resources permit :)

"Hey this is Chicken DNA!" is probably what someone says who's using a rating 4 SIN checker (as rating 4 is when they start even bothering to check if there IS any DNA on file) but the system got enough hits to detect the SIN as being fake (out of 8 dice, it got your fake SIN Rating in hits).
« Last Edit: <01-29-18/1814:57> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.