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Rambling questions on SINs

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Mollari

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« on: <01-23-18/2003:00> »
Hi All.

I'm writing a game that's heavy on identity, and it's important for me to get some idea of how money is handled around fake SINs.

1) Where do runners keep their money?
I know this is largely hand waved. If you had to track exactly how much money you had in each SIN and each account then it would take half the game gathering enough money together to buy gear without raising suspicious transfers (and if your fake sins happen to be always moving money between eachother then that's dumb). My group is currently assuming they have accounts with Zurich Orbital and that it is extraterritorial and outside of SINs, but upon researching this I realise this is not true on two counts.

a) It is unlikely anyone has a bank account with Zurich (please correct me if I'm wrong). Zurich Orbital replaced the world bank as the primary financier. It is owned by the Corporate Court which in turn is owned by the Big10. This sounds like a Central Bank meets Investment Bank. This doesn't sound like a retail bank for citizens.
b) Zurich stores the SIN database. This makes it sound more like a regulatory body (I know that the bank is seperate from the court and the SIN stuff, but it's all under one umbrella). Does this make it all the more important to nail down which SIN and where the money is held?

2) How is the money laundered?
My runners have level 6 SINs, and their fake identities are not of poor people. When assuming these identities they come with a whole life's worth of transaction histories, subscriptions to entertainment, and a job/source of income. So unless you've got a SIN of a homeless person this means that the SIN would need to have continued income stream to justify keeping the SIN. A SIN isn't a service, and it doesn't maintain itself. All money going in is a transaction, so you'd have to have a trust, or fake corp etc... dammit this is getting complicated.


So in summation. Relevant to the game I'm trying to run, there's the potential of their SINs being burned... so what is actually the consequence of this? Money, property? Could you use a burned SIN and claim it was a case of identity theft?
« Last Edit: <01-23-18/2225:09> by Mollari »

Reaver

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« Reply #1 on: <01-23-18/2237:20> »
This is covered in a number of books, but in small parts so it is easy to miss.

The first and most likely is a "shadow bank", these are often run by the larger criminal organizations that control the black market in general. For a small fee, they handle all the "legal paperwork" (IE they hide your money!) for the Runners and provide them with an account. I believe it is talked about in Run Faster.

With SINs, the rating reflects just how closely the SIN fits the character, so at a Rating 1, a SIN might be for a Japanese Ork Woman, but the player is a Human male... (So it doesn't Fit at ALL and would only get them past the most automated check. If the SIN valid? Yes. You can get on the bus)
At rating 6, the SIN has literally been crafted for the Character and matches many of the key checks, so only a deep and through check will show that it is a fake (such as when being booked by law enforcement for a serious crime).

Money Laundering happens in the SR the same way it is done now, just with more electronic work put into it.... Remember there are billions of transactions happening every minute all across the planet, even the best accountants with the best gear in the world would have a hard time tracking down a single fake transaction, or even a few thousand a minute just because of how many transactions are happening.

Heck, even today, it is incredibly hard to track down money laundering and when it does happen, it usually takes hundreds of thousands of man hours to find and trace. (Remember the HSBC scandal a few years ago?)



For the most part, don't try to wrap your head around it, as it will drive you crazy simply because we don't have enough general information on the things that would matter to give a detailed answer on exactly how such things would happen in SR. Such as international banking laws, extra-territoriality and finance laws, reporting procedures for large scale transactions, etc. - all things we would have to know about! 

For example, in Canada any cash purchase of over $10,000 for property, insurance, GICs, DPSAs, MFs, and SFs must be reported to the RCMP for investigation by the selling agent. (Found this out the hard way...)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mollari

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« Reply #2 on: <01-23-18/2244:54> »
Thanks man for the answer, it clears some stuff up.

So let's say that our my runners are holding their money in a shadow bank, and the shadow organisation is basically operating the Fake Sins making sure that transactions 'look' like they're happening, when really the money isn't there at all.

So what do you do in your games when a SIN is burned? Vehicles can be spoofed to a new user. Would they basically only loose property if they own?

SpellBinder

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« Reply #3 on: <01-24-18/0024:01> »
On a smaller scale, for players especially, transferring money from one certified credstick to another, to another, however many times they might want, can make the data trail incredibly difficult to pin down.  Credstick to credstick transactions come up as "Anonymous" because anyone can be holding said credstick for any given transaction.  In my own writing the main characters use credsticks to hold their money and cover their data trails, moving funds from a stick through their commlink for payments (and the receiving party gets their money from [insert fake SIN name here]).

As far as a burned SIN goes, I haven't quite gotten that far just yet in my story writing.  I write as if the data for a SIN is stored on a chip, like the sim card of modern cell phones (idea taken from an old Denver mission module).  Swap chips to change your identity info on hand (or move the chip to a new commlink, when that new Fairlight Caliban model comes out next Thanksgiving).  If a SIN is flagged as fake then burn the data from the chip (or literally burn it so it's destroyed) and move on to another.  Longer lasting runners will likely have a handful of different fake SINs available so they're not S.O.L. if just one happens to get flagged (my main two story characters have six fake SINs each, only one of which is actively being watched for by... undesirables).

As far as part of your number 2 question, figure that the cost of maintenance of SINs is subsumed by taxes collected by the national government in question.  And don't forget that shadowrunners are effectively paid "under the table."

Mollari

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« Reply #4 on: <01-24-18/0038:49> »
Switching between certified cred chips is smart. Thanks for that. I hadn't thought of that one.

Yes Comlinks broadcast a SIN, though it can be changed at any time to broadcast another, so they indeed must have a storage of SINs they can switch between. It would likely be set up like a computer with multiple logins.

Your comment on tax and the like is what I'm getting at. If they are paid under the table and largely keep their money bouncing between cred chips then they would have to launder it into their fake SINs for tax to be paid on.

SpellBinder

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« Reply #5 on: <01-24-18/1120:31> »
But also don't forget the number of unemployed and unemployable SINners out there, like everyone under the age of 15.  A system as massive as one that'll handle a SIN registry and monitoring is going to have mountains of megapulses of data to contend with, and won't easily be able to tell if a SIN belongs to a shadowrunner or someone who just happens to be financially independent.

As I read someone else say about monitoring, "Big Brother has ADHD and is on sensory overload."

Of course, this is also considering competency in those trying to blend in.  People invariably underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

Beta

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« Reply #6 on: <01-24-18/1230:45> »
I think there are some game simplification assumptions baked into the rules.  Putting the cost of a fake sin in the purchase price only rather than a mix of purchase and maintenance.   Not having SIN fade in quality with neglect.  Not have tests to avoid linking your multiple SINm. Etc.  Because that isn't what most people are playing for, you know?  It is like we don't worry about vehicle maintenance, the odds that your hero has the flu, or if the loyalty of contacts fades if you don't interact with them for a long time.

Mollari

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« Reply #7 on: <01-24-18/1613:27> »
Hey there.

Thanks again for things I hadn't thought about. It is likely that Shadowrunners operate SINs that are financially independent. Trust distributions or dividends on investments would explain a level of inflow into the identity, and would be used to pay the lifestyle and any other nifty lifestyle things you have.

Currently my take aways are these: (this is only for high quality SINs)

1) the bulk of their money will be managed by a shadow bank
2) the rest of the money is likely held in credit chips and shuttled between them where needed (thus outside the system)
3) a fake SIN would be of somebody who's financially independent. This would have the shadowbank operate a bare minimum sort or income stream to pay lifestyle expenses

Hey there Beta. I'm trying to make the game more mirror shades and trench coat. Were already pretty good with certain elements and do role-play the and transportation of vehicles, or the runners developing phobias and having to recover from them.

Beta

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« Reply #8 on: <01-24-18/1733:20> »
sure, just saying that you are then straying out of how the rules were designed,  and they may not support you well.  Personally if you want to get more into it I'd consider re-writing a bunch of the sin rules, putting more maintenance requirements  into good ones, etc.  Basically putting some crunch behind your decisions.

(I'd considered this in my game but ultimately decided that it was not something important enough at my table -- I'm not disagreeing with other groups focusing on it more, just pointing out that it isn't what the rules were designed to support, so they may need some bolstering)

Reaver

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« Reply #9 on: <01-25-18/0125:18> »
Yea,

A lot of the supporting rules are there mostly as back ground setting materials (meaning things like SINs, and Credsticks, etc), while they add spice and flavor to the game, they are not so supported that you can pick them apart for a game of "Economics and Capitalism".. And to be honest, most players don't really care about economics, or capitalism.... unless it involves magic and large amounts of high velocity lead :D

But, if your table IS interested in these things, it doesn't hurt to make them a more important part of your game. Just don't lose the forest of the trees..... Meaning, if your players have no interest, trying to cram something down their throats isn't going to serve your table well.

Sometimes, simple GM fiat will do, especially if you have a background in economics or finances, just apply what you know, and go from there. If you don't have such a background, then getting some basic knowledge in those things can help you out to see what is going on.

My background is in construction (electrical), so I have a good understanding of exactly what someone would find in most buildings, be that commercial, industrial, or residential, and I use that knowledge, both as a player and a GM when planning runs, and missions.

To give you an idea, on a high rise building, the average height of the ceiling to floor is 12 feet, with a false ceiling at the 8 to 10 foot mark. Most interior walls are only aluminum studs, supported by tin strapping and drywall. Which means, getting into a locked room in an office building is as simple as a boot to the wall. (Or a running troll!). But most players see a wall and think its impassible. I also know that the floor is on average 18 to 24 inches of re-enforced concrete... so it will reflect a blast, while the walls won't... and you are NOT tunnelling through a floor :P

And when I want to get REALLY dirty with a GM and his master piece of top notch automated security.. I know exactly how and where to disable the entire system, AND the back up... (Or course, now its a question of if my character knows this.. which some do while other do not.)


So feel free to whatever you think will enhance the enjoyment of your players, SR gives you a framework with which to work with, after that, its up to you and your table. If you are worried about Canon... well, as the old saying goes: "No plan survives first contact with the enemy", and your players are no different! 
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mollari

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« Reply #10 on: <01-25-18/0709:45> »
Thanks guys for all the great feedback. We actually have people with backgrounds in electrical engineering, computer sciences, economics, social sciences and financial services industries. We as a group tend to incorporate our understandings of the world and make it a lot more real for us all.
Thanks guys for the info and help!
« Last Edit: <01-25-18/0712:54> by Mollari »

welldressedgent

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« Reply #11 on: <01-27-18/1501:11> »

I always assumed it was in a numbered account, or bitcoins or something. Not even linked to a SiN.
If you do have a real SiN, the 15% tax might represent your money-laundering expenses, at least in part.
wdg

Reaver

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« Reply #12 on: <01-27-18/1845:29> »

I always assumed it was in a numbered account, or bitcoins or something. Not even linked to a SiN.
If you do have a real SiN, the 15% tax might represent your money-laundering expenses, at least in part.

You're not wrong. SR is essentially a 'paperless' society so no one will ever hand you a $20 bill (for the most part). But they may hand you a Certified Credstick for $20.

Certified Credsticks are money that is not linked to an account or ID directly. They are the bills of SR.

Numbered accounts still have a papertrail, but are much harder to track. Your bank account right now is a numbered account... and that number traces back to you. A numbered account that is tied to a numbered business liecense requires more hoops to jump through, but eventually they do go back to name on a document in some lawyer's office and some registry somewhere. (But considering how many times this could be done before you actually get to a name, it can get to be almost impossible for anything other then a dedicated law enforcement team to suss out, with 1000s of manhours of going through records)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mollari

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« Reply #13 on: <01-28-18/0034:14> »
The 6th world isn't entirely paperless. There's still corp script and other paper currencies that the dirty SINless use.

So I've found two quotes to contribute to the post:

"Credit account: A credit account is an online banking account that can be accessed at any time via your commlink. Transactions require passcode or biometric verification to be authorized... digital transactions leave a “paper trail” that, while it can be hidden or concealed, is entirely too traceable for serious criminal activities. Each account must be registered to a particular (usually fake) SIN, unless the account is handled by an anonymous underworld banking service (with its own risks and complications)..." CRB 442

and

"While easy to buy, standard goods are eminently traceable. Records of legal purchases are almost always kept, shared, and cross-indexed; whether this datatrail gets stuck to your fake SIN or, worse, a real one, it’s a potential liability." CRB p416

So I guess you're either managing your finances through credit accounts attached to SINs (Real/Fake), using a Shadowbank as mentioned by Reaver, or paying Fixers with Certified Credit Chips.

So from this and the contributions you fine shadowrunners:
1) Where do runners keep their money?
It is kept on SINs, ShadowBank managed accounts, or in Credit Chips

2) How is the money laundered
Assuming that Johnsons' pay us in Credit Chips and not a bank transfer (cause why not?), I guess it would be processed through the ShadowBank, of whom would cover the complications of transferring money into your credit accounts legally/ish

So this is my current understanding. Anyone disagree?
I guess my problem was never how people keep money out of the system or pay illegal agents (Fixers, Arms Dealers etc.) but how it's managed for people who have lifestyles. Especially those that buy lifestyles.

Marcus

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« Reply #14 on: <01-28-18/1059:53> »
I think you're losing the forest for the trees.

It's safe to assume in society where AR is central feature of your day to day activity, that pretty much everything you do is recorded, databased, cross sectioned, and generally analyzed by a host of program on a variety of levels, start with massive meta data tables and working your way down to next suggest purchase at amazon.com.

But the base assumption is flawed, fake sins work, sure the average fake sin 1 sucks, but it still works. As soon as it's established as your life style your now good to cruise through life as whoever that fake sin says you are. Average runners aren't sitting on giant fat stacks of cash, sure they may save up for their next big purchase, but in general they aren't going to be stunningly active in money market accounts. Shadowrunner wealth is kept in gear, vehicles, training, cybernetic implants, foci, magic lodges.

Hands on Capability is more important then high finance. Experienced active runners teams generally shack up in one decent life style, and are ready to burn it and move on in hurry if serious authorities come looking for them for real. Most runners collect cred stick and never ask any questions beyond what's the take and when's the next run.  The issue of how that money is hidden fall into the realm of Fixers and Johnsons, both of whom, will be well prepared to handle those issues if they are going continue as fixers and Johnson's for long.

Both Fixer's and Johnson's need the runners to be able to access those funds, and need them to be able to do so in easy no nonsense way.  Doing anything else results in runners knocking at your door and that's bad business for everyone involved.

Runners aren't going to be money laundering, not b/c they couldn't but b/c it's not fun. Yes many character with runners skills could certainly make more cash if they settled down and did some kind white collar or corporate crime, but my friend that's not Shadowrun. There was a supplement I think in 2nd that talked about starting your own mega corp and working your way up, and that perfectly cool concept for a game if you wanna go that way. But it has very little in common with your typical shadowrun.
« Last Edit: <01-28-18/1106:19> by Marcus »
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