Author Topic: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?  (Read 7095 times)

kirk

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #30 on: (12:58:50/11-16-11) »
I think that there's a serious underestimation of CAS power here.

FOrgetting for the moment that it has the largest military in the Americas, it has an economy quite a bit stronger than the UCAS (The CAS dollar is three times (or more!) the value of the UCAS dollar, for instance) and the magical power is higher than the UCAS, despite having two-thirds the population.

There's some serious mojo in the CAS, backed by fantastic military budgets and really skilled troopers.

The CAS probably has crap for social programs, however, lacking health care, retirement benefits, unions, etc.

The CAS navy is known to be quite a bit stronger than Aztechnology/Aztlands, with a much larger, and better-trained, military as well. Their weakpoint is the lack of special forces and, more over, a big isolationist streak that prevents them from getting involved unless directly threatened.
Wow.
OK, let's start with GDP. (I'm going to use the Shadowrun Wikia for source as it's common to all AND I'm not near my books at the present.)
AZTLAN GDP: 2,067 Trillion Pesos. At ~500 P <=> 1, this converts to ~4.1T (caveats due to exchange tricks apply).
UCAS GDP: 4.816T. Exchange rate U4 <=> 1, becoming ~1.2T.
CAS GDP: 2.7T. Exchange rate C3 <=> 1, becoming ~0.9T.

So much for the CAS strong economy.

The CAS has a very large blue-water navy. Unfortunately it's relatively immaterial against the Aztlan forces.  Army wise, Aztlan's military is as trained and experienced as that of the CAS. Sorry, but the "southern supremacy of arms" is a myth (Unless you can find it in source documents.) The army is well trained, is not using cutting edge weaponry, and so isn't chicken feed. But Atlan's military is larger, is also well trained, and is using modern weaponry.

I'm going to have to ask for source for the claim of "magical power is higher than the UCAS". Especially since you're claiming an absolute increase over that of the UCAS, not just per capita. And even so, we're not comparing the CAS to the UCAS, we're comparing it to Aztlan. Which has a bit of a reputation in the magic arena as I recall.

Wakshaani

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #31 on: (10:22:10/11-20-11) »
Sorry for the long response time, here, as I ha dto go diggin' through original documentation rather than the Wiki. The GDP numbers are extrapolated from the "Wealth per capita" figures rather than being concrete. The average UCAS citizen brings in around 28,000Y a year, while the average CAS citizen brings in around 25,000Y a year. The cost of living is about 75% of the UCAS rate, but high tech is more expensive, which is about right. In essence, you can live dirt-cheap in the CAS, but you can't get the cutting edge stuff as easily, which is pretty much the same as today.

UCAS has around 170 million people, CAS around 110 million, while Aztlan has around 135 million. We don't know if this number includes corporate citizens, but we'll assume it does for all three to make life easy.

In terms of magical strength, we know that the CAS and the UCAS have a general parity, despite the much smaller CAS population. It's safe to assume that Aztlan was much stronger in the time of Darke and the plotlines where they tapped Horrors and the Blood Gestalt, but that whole group got waxed, the plot killed, and the manaspike closed off. How powerful they are now is a matter of opinion, but I'd say it's safe to say lower than before, but likely a tad stronger than the UCAS or CAS, which are more mundane nations. (The UCAS more than CAS, as shown above.)

In military terms, Aztlan only has about 30,000 combat forces, mostly in the army, but also has around a hundred thousand Aztechnology soldiers to draw from. They have a strong army, a middlin' air force, and no appreciable navy. Aztechnology doesn't have much of a navy either (A few escorts for anti-piracy work, but no main battle craft, aircraft carriers, etc) nor a large air force. Aztlan's forces are intended for protection, not force-projection, so they have no long-range bombers, but do have old-school tube-based artillery. This proved quite effective against the Texas National Guard when they last met. It's reasonable to assume that they have rings of guns set up akin to North Korea of today, keeping an eye on Texas cities, but to a far smaller degree. Aztlan and Aztechnology forces are split among the border with PCC, CAS, the Yucatan, and Amazonia, while the navy largely deals with carribean pirates. The western Azzie navy hangs out in San Deigo, but doesn't seem to do much.

CAS has around 90,000 in the army, an air force (but no official numbers are given), and a surprisingly strong navy. There are two carrier groups (But these are smaller, 35,000 ton carriers, not the supercarriers of today), a large number of brown-water ships, and the largest submarine force on the planet. Initial reports were that they had no boomers (nuclear-equiped subs) but this has since been revealed as false as the mothballed units that they had were trotted back out when border tensions grew too hot. (Of course, they won't use said nuclear devices, rendering them a moot point, but.) ... the CAS also has a unique unit in the world in that they have submersible mini-carriers, each holding about a wing (6 planes) of manned, or unmanned, aircraft. It's unknown how many of these that they might have. (At least one, probably a few, but not lots.)

CAS forces are well-trained, better than the average military, but aren't as well-equipped. CAS special forces are minimal, certainly no match for Souix WIldcats. Hazarding a GUESS, I'd put them on par with Leopard Guards, but not as skilled as Eagle or Jaguar.

The CAS airforce is higher tech than Aztlan's, but nowhere near as advanced as the PCC. CAS does have long-range strategic bombers but, due to their isolationist stance, they likely lack any sort of refueling force to allow a true worldwide range.

The CAS has friendly borders with the UCAS, keeping mainly anti-dmuggling border patrols rather than combat troops in these areas and the PCC. Relations with the Carribean fluxuates, but they have no military to speak of, so CAS forces here are just anti-pirate in nature and a token military presence along Florida's border. The bulk of CAS forces are in Texas, along the Aztlan border... in return, Aztlan keeps over 30,000 men on their side of the border, but most of these are Aztechnology assets rather than national units.

Overall, Aztlan is a more powerful nation than the CAS once Aztechnology forces are brought into the math, but suffers from having a hot border, a recently-hot but starting to cool border, and two unfriendly borders, with the hotter borders a huge distance away from the cooler, while CAS has only one unfriendly border, allowing a greater spearhead strength. Aztlan has better special forces but poor ability to infiltrate them, while CAS has good infiltration methods but average special forces who might be routed out before being able to cause any harm. The CAS airforce has better striking ability than the Azzie, but not as much durability ... over time, Aztechnology reliability will take over as CAS air assets are more and more under the wrench, but, initially, they have the advantage. There's certainly a race to see if the CAS air power can take out Aztlan's entrenched artillery units before they can unleash doom across the TExas-Azlan border. This "I might go down, but I'll take you with me!" murder-suicide pact is probably a big reason why the CAS has never gone in to try and retake the land... see also: North Korea holding Seoul hostage. CAS special forces being generally weaker than Aztechnology's means the slipping in to take these units out beforehand is also a very unlikely event.

Oh, and we know that during the Yucatan war, and later Amazonia's war, the Azzies reduced the CAS borders to a skeleton crew, which lead many Southern generals to chomp at the bits for a "Now is the time!" moment, but they didn't pull the trigger. Thanks to Los Angeles and Ghostwalker's kicking them out of Denver, the Azzies have also moved troops less to the CAS border than to the PCC one, looking hungrily as LA and Denver. This has caused the PCC to get much cozier with the CAS than ever before, and a mutal defense policy seems likely, if as-yet unmentioned in any source material. The PCC, of course, has a smaller military but a vastly more high-tech one, the strongest air force in the Americas, and brutal, brutal level computer assets that neither Azlan or CAS can match. It's assumed that they have some Wildcats on-call, but their own special forces are about average or just below.

So, overall, I give the edge to CAS, who have greater first-strike ability and a more focused force, who also have the naval assets to attack from the flanks, but it'd be ugly and Texas would get creamed in return. The Azzie forces are just split along too many fronts just now and could be pushed back on one if pushed hard enough. With the CAS border being the coolest of the four (discounting the Carribean, natch), it's the least likely to see elite units stationed there, which were used in the Yucatan and now are split between the Amazon (most) and the PCC (the minority). Then again, the Azzies have combat-tested troops while the CAS forces haven't seen actual combat (other than minor border exchanges) in a generation. Seasoned command personell can't be underestimated and I'd wager that, while the initial Aztlan forces would fall back quickly, the command staff would be able to soften the blow and establish very effective counter-punches, not to mention insurgency that would break out, backed by Jaguars.

Phew!

That's a lot of yammering!

kirk

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #32 on: (10:45:50/11-20-11) »
Nice, and thank you. I'l be a while responding. I want to check to see why my memory says otherwise in a couple of points (I'm old, it just may be my memory failing), pull out some strategy books, think about it a bit.

Wakshaani

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #33 on: (11:03:07/11-20-11) »
No worries mate. I had to drag out Aztlan, Shadows across North America, and the Neo-A Guide to same (Man, I miss the Neo-A guides ... thos ethings were dense!) but I haven't gone to the Threats or SOTA books, which should have a few tidbits. The Shadows of Latin America vaporware is bound to give us more on Aztlan (alas), and War! had some.

I swear, if I ever get a good vacation period open, I need to sit down and read all the books again, cover to cover, and see what jumps out. Four editions and over 90 books in my closet right now, plus a few PDFs for the new stuff. Yeesh!

(And now I wonder what the 100th published Shadowrun book was. Hm!)

Mirikon

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #34 on: (11:40:20/11-20-11) »
I believe in Corporate Enclaves it mentions that the PCC and CAS have mutual defense pacts (if not treaties) against Aztlan.
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SwampFox

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #35 on: (20:47:01/01-01-12) »
For what it's worth, there's one major thing in the CAS that is a constant personal irritant. That's the mississippi river still exiting near New Orleans. Oh, I'll continue to play it that way.

But keeping it from jumping to the Red River and out the Atchafalaya is expensive and gets more expensive every year. Add the internal dissension and the war with Aztlan and the loss of economic support from the US (no corps of engineers) and, well, I figure the Mississippi River should make a right turn as it leaves the  state of Mississippi, leaving the old riverbed as the offhand spill. (and eliminating Baton Rouge and most points south as Major Ports.)

It's a minor irritant, all things considered, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
I think in this case there may be a Magical aspect that's keeping the ole Miss in her banks.  With all the natural disasters that have been shaking the world, including the Twins that hit LA (and according to the Corporate Enclave book had people in Kenya seeing their well water ripple)  it's entirely possible that the river became re-rentrenched in its old bed.  Throw in the possibilities of free spirits working to restore the river and toxic spirits and creatures working to make it more stagnant and horrific for everyone else; then for the cherry on top pile on the various AAA and below interests that want to see the river kept where it is, and you've got a pretty potent combo keeping the river from jumping its banks.

Crimsondude

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #36 on: (23:41:45/01-01-12) »
6WA definitely implies that there's magic in the Mighty Mississp.

Crimsondude

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #37 on: (00:39:59/01-12-12) »
Actually, come to think of it, as steeped in magic New Orleans is in Target: Smuggler Havens, I guess you could say that it's been canon for quite a while.

Mirikon

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #38 on: (18:59:31/01-12-12) »
I don't see why anyone expected differently. If there's a Psychic Highway following the route of one of the old US highways, why would it surprise anyone that one of the most iconic natural features in the United States, and a means of transportation for longer than there even were highways, would have magical properties?
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CanRay

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #39 on: (19:29:49/01-12-12) »
I don't see why anyone expected differently. If there's a Psychic Highway following the route of one of the old US highways, why would it surprise anyone that one of the most iconic natural features in the United States, and a means of transportation for longer than there even were highways, would have magical properties?
Trans-Continental Railroads have been around longer.  ;)
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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #40 on: (03:17:18/01-22-12) »
I don't see why anyone expected differently. If there's a Psychic Highway following the route of one of the old US highways, why would it surprise anyone that one of the most iconic natural features in the United States, and a means of transportation for longer than there even were highways, would have magical properties?
Trans-Continental Railroads have been around longer.  ;)
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CanRay

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #41 on: (12:08:15/01-22-12) »
I don't see why anyone expected differently. If there's a Psychic Highway following the route of one of the old US highways, why would it surprise anyone that one of the most iconic natural features in the United States, and a means of transportation for longer than there even were highways, would have magical properties?
Trans-Continental Railroads have been around longer.  ;)
.... it's things like this that make us start hunting up looney bins for you, CanRay.
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Mirikon

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #42 on: (17:36:55/01-22-12) »
I don't see why anyone expected differently. If there's a Psychic Highway following the route of one of the old US highways, why would it surprise anyone that one of the most iconic natural features in the United States, and a means of transportation for longer than there even were highways, would have magical properties?
Trans-Continental Railroads have been around longer.  ;)
.... it's things like this that make us start hunting up looney bins for you, CanRay.
They won't have me.
I thought Canada was[/i] a looney bin?
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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #43 on: (19:54:42/01-22-12) »
I don't see why anyone expected differently. If there's a Psychic Highway following the route of one of the old US highways, why would it surprise anyone that one of the most iconic natural features in the United States, and a means of transportation for longer than there even were highways, would have magical properties?
Trans-Continental Railroads have been around longer.  ;)
.... it's things like this that make us start hunting up looney bins for you, CanRay.
They won't have me.
I thought Canada was a looney bin?
No, it only seems that way because it's full of Canadians.
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Dominious

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Re: Texas -based Shadowrun setting?
« Reply #44 on: (14:46:20/05-27-17) »
One thing not specifically mentioned but bears addressing. CAS may not have top teir Spec Ops personnel compared to some of the other nations but with a navy that powerful it stands to reason that their Spec ops people would likely include a fair number of SOC Marines and Seal type operators. And with that large a submarine fleet infiltration into the Azzie rear areas would be disasterous for them. Even possibly reigniting the Yucatan into a full blown uprising while Azlan was distracted by open warfare with the CAS. And Ask both Napolean and Hitler what a twofront war gets you? Both got their hoops kicked by fighting in europe and invading russia at the same time. Granted russian winters play a huge part in boths defeat but stretching yourself that thin will inevitibly take it's toll.