Author Topic: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?  (Read 183 times)

belaran

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Hi all,

I did not find in core rulebook an explanation on what is happening when a projecting mage gets stun or push into overflow... Does he jumps back magically in his body and starts agonizing (and maybe he can help) or is his astral form somewhat "lost in time and space" ? This appears to be missing in SR5, but I'm guessing some previous edition may have covered that...

belaran

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #1 on: (10:59:46/10-13-17) »
Just to give more context and maybe explained why I am asking: Suppose a mage on an astral reckon encounters a fight a spirit. The spirit being ordered to kill intruder deals physical damage and push the mage into overflow.

Now two scenario

1) he automatically joins back his body and need to be stabilized

2) he gets inconscious in the astral space and the spirit can "finish him"

As you can guess the outcome changes greatly depending of 1 or 2. I tend to lean toward 2 but maybe I am wrong ?

FST_Gemstar

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #2 on: (16:30:30/10-13-17) »
I don't think your astral form automatically returns to your body. The Astral is dangerous!

ShadowcatX

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #3 on: (16:40:34/10-13-17) »
I don't believe there really is a RAW answer.

However, as projection is sending your consciousness out of your body if you fall out of consciousness, I'm not certain your consciousness would just stick around not doing anything. It's a weird situation.

SpellBinder

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #4 on: (18:22:01/10-13-17) »
Not so dangerous as it used to be, IIRC, in 3rd you got dumped back in your body at -1 Magic, permanently.

belaran

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #5 on: (18:49:35/10-13-17) »
@SpellBinder I did have a feeling there was something for that in older edition. Burning a Magic point is harsh indeed but a good way to keep the astral lethal but not that lethal.

I do agree, it is a weird situation, often the mage will be killed or simply knock unconscious, rather than end up in overflow.

Reaver

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #6 on: (04:38:13/10-16-17) »
Projection takes effort and concentration. If the mage has been hurt badly enough to break that concentration....

<this is where the issue comes up as pages 315 and 312 say nothing helpful. I reread them>.

It would appear that you 'rubber band' back to your now broken body to die or heal up!

I base that off of what is MISSING in the rules more than what is said. By that I mean in previous editions they went to great detail to explain one of the risks of projection is getting lost and not being able to find your body again!  - something that was a death sentence to a mage. But they make no reference to any of that anymore.

Which implies that a mage can always find his way back... and makes some sense as they do mention the effort and concentration it takes to project.

(And speaking as a mage player, I kind of like the loosening a bit - opens up options that in previous editions just killed the mage.)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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belaran

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #7 on: (04:46:28/10-16-17) »
Yeah, this tidbit got lost in the realm of SR5. It is weird, Shadowrun is so crunchy, but sometimes it seems that very important chunk is forgotten.

In my game, I've ruled out to to reimplement the 3ed rule. If the mage is put in overflow while fighting in the astral, connection is broken, he is thrown back into his body, dying - and if someone is around to save him he awakes with one less magic point. It makes astral battle and travel more dangerous, which I think is a good idea has it can easily be (mis)used by PCs to go around difficulties. (but, again, IMHO, and I tend to be more black trench coat than pink mohawk)

BTW, it would be nice to have an official errata (Just realised I did not check the Missions FAQ, maybe this is cover there ?), but certainly not a big deal....

Reaver

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #8 on: (05:10:40/10-16-17) »
You can always submit the question to Patrick and the errata team. It will take some time to get a response, but if they DON'T know the issues, they can't work to fix them.


I hear you. Some days, I feel the CRB for 5e was written expecting you to know a lot of this stuff from earlier editions - which is a poor design choice IMO.
Other days, I feel as if the CRB was a cut/paste job from multiple books, but they missed parts.


Sadly, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle, and given the costs of deadtree books, Catalysts size and the costs of printing, storing, shipping of books. I feel somewhere along the way someone said "We need to cut 50 pages out of this thing to make it cost effective (and readable!). So they cut a bunch of stuff, but didn't/couldn't find a way to fill in all the gaps made by the cuts...

But That's just my thought on the matter.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

belaran

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #9 on: (07:41:02/10-16-17) »
You can always submit the question to Patrick and the errata team. It will take some time to get a response, but if they DON'T know the issues, they can't work to fix them.

What is the process to contact them ? Do they have an email adress ? A thre

Quote
I hear you. Some days, I feel the CRB for 5e was written expecting you to know a lot of this stuff from earlier editions - which is a poor design choice IMO.

belaran

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #10 on: (07:59:57/10-16-17) »
You can always submit the question to Patrick and the errata team. It will take some time to get a response, but if they DON'T know the issues, they can't work to fix them.


I hear you. Some days, I feel the CRB for 5e was written expecting you to know a lot of this stuff from earlier editions - which is a poor design choice IMO.
Other days, I feel as if the CRB was a cut/paste job from multiple books, but they missed parts.


Sadly, I think the answer is somewhere in the middle, and given the costs of deadtree books, Catalysts size and the costs of printing, storing, shipping of books. I feel somewhere along the way someone said "We need to cut 50 pages out of this thing to make it cost effective (and readable!). So they cut a bunch of stuff, but didn't/couldn't find a way to fill in all the gaps made by the cuts...

But That's just my thought on the matter.

Jack_Spade

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #11 on: (09:18:05/10-16-17) »
The most essential rules part is:

"Your mind and body are still connected, so any damage taken to body or mind is felt by both." p.313 Core

In my interpretation that means you get wound mods and once you reach overflow, you die, no matter if you got hurt in astral combat while away or if someone cut the throat of your comatose body.

What you do not do, is jump back automatically:
"When a magician is astrally projecting, her mind has stepped out for the moment. Mental detection and manipulation spells targeting the physical body of an astrally projecting mage simply do not work, although other spells do. Although if you really want to mess up a magician without killing her, you can move her body away from where she left it. Magicians hate playing hide and seek with their own body. If someone moves your body away from where you expected it to be, you’ll have to search for it. If that happens, make an Assensing + Intuition [Astral] (1 hour) Extended Test. The threshold should be determined by the gamemaster based on how far your body was moved and how well it was hidden." p.314 Core
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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #12 on: (16:51:42/10-17-17) »
I agree, the mere fact that "moving a mages body" is a possible death sentence for them, indicates to me that finding it is not as easy as just to pop in to a friendly mage and say "Dude, I lost my body, knock me unconscious!"

The Bald Man

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Re: [SR5] Astral - Getting stunned or killed in the astral ?
« Reply #13 on: (14:08:04/10-18-17) »
Split the difference, if the body is where it was left, then unconsciousness returns the spirit to the body.  If the body has been moved...well...the then continue the countdown till you die from being separated from your body for too long.