Author Topic: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?  (Read 491 times)

Tassyr

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Maybe I'm misremembering- it's been a solid three to four years since I tried to play, after all- but is it just me or are cyberlimbs/cyber-eyes/etc pretty much useless nowadays? I can get a cheap pair of contacts and some goggles that'll have all the mods I would normally stick in my eyes, and they're fine. What I mean:

[All calculations done at "Standard" value.]

Code: [Select]
Contacts: (Rating 3)
          Image Link
          Smartlink
          Flare Compensation
Cost: (2,875¥)

Goggles: (Rating 5)
          Thermographic Vision
          Vision Magnification
          Vision Enhancement (3)
Cost: (2,500¥)

Total Cost: (5,375¥)

Versus, for the same effects (I left out low-light vision 'cause I was swinging an Elf when I figured this out)

Cyber-eyes (Rating 3)
          Image Link, Smartlink
          Vision Enhancement (3)
          Flare Compensation
          Themographic Vision
          Vision Magnification:
Total Cost: (60,500¥) and .5 ess.

Just. Good lord. That cost seems to me that anyone with cybereyes made the dumbest decision of their career!

And then you look at a cyberlimb. My Sammie is swinging Strength 5 and Agility 6. To replace a limb with an obvious one and get it -just- to where he normally is:
Code: [Select]
Cyberlimb (Obvious)
          Customized Agility (6)
          Customized Strength (5)
          no additional functions, mods, or addons
Total Cost: (40,000¥) and 1 ess.

Where the heck's the advantage? Contacts and stuff get hacked, and you can still see if you yank them off. Cybereyes get hacked and you're farked until the decker on your team can do something about it. It looks like all you get for trying to make a chromed-up char with anything other than reaction or strength mods is slapped around on prices, essence cost and more. What am I -missing?-

[edit; completely fried some of my math. But the result is the same.]
« Last Edit: (02:42:29/09-01-17) by Tassyr »
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

Jack_Spade

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6007
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #1 on: (03:09:48/09-01-17) »
The benefits are indeed very lopsided.
Implanted Smartlinks and Flare Compensation do give a higher bonus/compensation, but that's not really worth the price of admission under normal circumstances.
Unusual circumstances are:
- Mages who pay essence can use all their new senses to work magic
- Optimized combatants that need all the boni they can find
- People paranoid about getting separated from their gear
- People who like chrome just that much
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Tassyr

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #2 on: (03:13:57/09-01-17) »
The benefits are indeed very lopsided.
Implanted Smartlinks and Flare Compensation do give a higher bonus/compensation, but that's not really worth the price of admission under normal circumstances.

Wait, where's that? I think I missed that in the book...
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

Jack_Spade

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6007
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #3 on: (03:16:18/09-01-17) »
Implanted Smartlink grants wireless +2 dice instead of only +1 and wireless on Flare Comp can reduce a synchronized Flashpack from -4 to zero penalty.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Tassyr

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #4 on: (03:21:56/09-01-17) »
Implanted Smartlink grants wireless +2 dice instead of only +1 and wireless on Flare Comp can reduce a synchronized Flashpack from -4 to zero penalty.

Hm. I don't think that one die warrants a full 8,000¥ price tag though, do you?
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

Jack_Spade

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6007
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #5 on: (03:25:39/09-01-17) »
Nope, that's why I said it's not really worth it. ;)
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Tassyr

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #6 on: (03:29:02/09-01-17) »
Nope, that's why I said it's not really worth it. ;)

So what -happened?- I mean, it seems to me that back in the day -everyone- running a Sammie had a chromed out badass with cybereyes and a few other metal bits showing up. And now... all that stuff's borderline stupid to grab!
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

Sterling

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 415
  • Dragged in by the credstick
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #7 on: (04:22:22/09-01-17) »
Nope, that's why I said it's not really worth it. ;)

So what -happened?- I mean, it seems to me that back in the day -everyone- running a Sammie had a chromed out badass with cybereyes and a few other metal bits showing up. And now... all that stuff's borderline stupid to grab!

Only if you consider it in a meta-gaming payer mindset.

Consider it from a character point of view - most SINless don't have access to the top end medical centres, so any debilitating injury needs an artificial replacement available on almost any street corner rather than a nice cloned geneware item vat-grown from your own DNA.

Were you injured in the Armed Forces? Don't you think you'll be fixed up with generic cyber parts?

And then there's a little benefit that gets overlooked far too often:

Quote
Besides their wireless functionality, almost all cyberware devices are equipped with a neural interface (not to be confused with DNI) that lets you mentally activate and control their functions. You can use this in place of wireless control, preventing wireless hacking, as long as all of the “moving parts” are connected to your nervous system. An item that has a wireless bonus, however, can only gain that full level of functionality if wireless functionality is active.

Core Rulebook, p.451 (highlighting mine)

Sometimes it's worth looking beyond the spreadsheet.
"His name is Sterling. He’s an ex-pat Brit making a living as a fixer and a hacker in Metropole. He’s a rare blend of upstanding and fun...(so) listen to his experience."
>>Data Trails, p.82

Jack_Spade

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6007
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #8 on: (04:29:28/09-01-17) »
A chance in design philosophy for the most part. Compared to 1-3 edition, 4th introduced technologies that made the setting look more futuristic than the pretty outdated future of the 80s, that SR had until then. (Essentially they introduced smartphones and nano-tech)
5th edition tried to dial that back a little, invented reasons why nano-tech couldn't be used as much anymore (thanks to CFD). For some reason that also meant that cyberware got a lot more expensive, while external gadgets stayed cheap.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Tassyr

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #9 on: (04:41:34/09-01-17) »
Nope, that's why I said it's not really worth it. ;)

So what -happened?- I mean, it seems to me that back in the day -everyone- running a Sammie had a chromed out badass with cybereyes and a few other metal bits showing up. And now... all that stuff's borderline stupid to grab!

Only if you consider it in a meta-gaming payer mindset.

Consider it from a character point of view - most SINless don't have access to the top end medical centres, so any debilitating injury needs an artificial replacement available on almost any street corner rather than a nice cloned geneware item vat-grown from your own DNA.

Were you injured in the Armed Forces? Don't you think you'll be fixed up with generic cyber parts?

And then there's a little benefit that gets overlooked far too often:

Quote
Besides their wireless functionality, almost all cyberware devices are equipped with a neural interface (not to be confused with DNI) that lets you mentally activate and control their functions. You can use this in place of wireless control, preventing wireless hacking, as long as all of the “moving parts” are connected to your nervous system. An item that has a wireless bonus, however, can only gain that full level of functionality if wireless functionality is active.

Core Rulebook, p.451 (highlighting mine)

Sometimes it's worth looking beyond the spreadsheet.

No, I get that if you slap off your wireless you can't get hacked and retain some functionality. I have actually read the book. But my point is that even if it cuts off that risk you're still looking at an -insane- price difference for the same functions. And since if you turn off wireless you don't -get- your wireless bonuses (which almost every cyber-item has) and suddenly it isn't as impressive as it sounds. Not for the price tag attached.
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

ShadowcatX

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #10 on: (08:18:30/09-01-17) »
So you don't think 1 di is worth 8k Nuyen? 8k Nuyen converts to 4 karma. That 6th point of agility you bought, that is 30 karma.

And cyberlimbs are great. No one takes a cyberlimb for 5 str and 6 agi. They take a cyberlimb for whatever Str, 9 agility, 2 armor, an extra point of health, and a concealable weapon.

But let us pretend that someone did want a cyberarm with 5 str and 6 agi. Those attributes cost you 9/24 of your A priority. A cyberarm with those attributes is going to be around 5/24 of their A priority.

Marcus

  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1181
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #11 on: (08:50:18/09-01-17) »
I think you just need to reduce your load out. In general i think cybereyes are good value for the money and essence.
The normal setup I'm used look like so- Rating 2 Eyes 6k [8], Low Light 1.5k [2], thermal 1.5k [2], Flair comp 1k [1], built in image link, and smartlink 4k [3] =14k .3e 
14k for +2 to shooting and 2 vision modes and flair comp is solid value.

also your math is bad on the limb custom agi 6+3 base is agi 9 and str 8. So for 40k and 1e  with one arm your agi 9 str 8.
« Last Edit: (08:53:43/09-01-17) by Marcus »

Tassyr

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 177
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #12 on: (12:45:40/09-01-17) »
also your math is bad on the limb custom agi 6+3 base is agi 9 and str 8. So for 40k and 1e  with one arm your agi 9 str 8.

And cyberlimbs are great. No one takes a cyberlimb for 5 str and 6 agi. They take a cyberlimb for whatever Str, 9 agility, 2 armor, an extra point of health, and a concealable weapon.

After some tinkering I found that I was reading that "Maximum upper limit" stuff -way- wrong in the core book. Having done some rework I managed to get an elf sam (Admittedly after spending an unholy amount of nuyen) to, specialized and with  wireless running... a whopping 20 die on his main weapon. Just. 20 die. Admittedly the guy has an essence rating of a whole 0.08, and is probably more toaster than man, but. Damn. Was I looking at that wrong. Add in an initiative of 12+3d6, and he's just... evil.
« Last Edit: (12:50:05/09-01-17) by Tassyr »
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5345
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #13 on: (17:41:18/09-01-17) »
Yes, ware is good in the Right combinations. But there are costs....

For your Elf... that could be a sudden attraction to toasters....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

ShadowcatX

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
Re: [5e] Is it just me, or has Cyberware gotten the shaft?
« Reply #14 on: (17:45:33/09-01-17) »
Yes, ware is good in the Right combinations. But there are costs....

For your Elf... that could be a sudden attraction to toasters....

Is being attracted to toasters better or worse than being attracted to dandelions?