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Fighting Chainsaws and Whips

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« on: <08-14-17/0202:36> »
How might y'all oppose PC's wielding a mono-filament chainsaw or whip? Most NPCs get sliced in half.

farothel

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« Reply #1 on: <08-14-17/0355:37> »
Easy: range.  Those are melee (or in case of the whip, close to melee weapons).  Make sure your NPCs stay out of range and use ranged weapons.

Or if you really want to do melee use the simple truth: everything the PCs have, the NPCs can have too.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #2 on: <08-14-17/0419:50> »
Range - Chainsaw does jack shit to the guy with the assault rifle across the room. It does even less to the sniper on overwatch.

Spirits - You know what is awesome about spirits? Immunity to normal weapons.

Grenades - Chunky salsa: now with 20% more chainsaw.

Magic - Control Actions, now you get to watch helplessly as you murder your team!

Matrix - I'm sorry, your chainsaw just got the BSOD. Fortunately, your cybereyes are now receiving 240,302,130 AR popups for Chainsaw repair shops in North America.


That should get you started, at least.
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ShadowcatX

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« Reply #3 on: <08-14-17/1700:45> »
Shadowrun is not about one on one epic duels. Your chainsaw wielding guy wants to cut people in half? Let him. Other things can challenge him: a locked security door, data on a chip, magic, time sensitive stuff, drones (especially flying ones with guns), etc.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #4 on: <08-15-17/0033:03> »
... or a decker with some distance, a guy with a grenade, a mage with a spirit or Control Actions, a sniper or a competent ganger with an AR.

You really want to screw them up, though?  This guy, the 'spark' in the second paragraph, a KE Grade 4 Magic 10 assensing detective lieutenant who gets handed this 'serial killer' assignment.  Which means that while he might not be the guy going toe-to-toe with your chainsaw-wielding maniac (though he might be able to), what he has going for him is his ability to collect information.

Remember that the guy who wins the information battle/war is considerably more likely to win the overall battle/war.  These guys can kill you from a meter or two away; a competent street sam with an AR can kill you from half a block a way.  The assassin with a sniper rifle can kill you from half a mile a way with a perfect shot; a rigger can kill you from half the city away.  A mage with a material link, an astral spotter, or with knowledge of your astral signature can kill you with spell or spirit half the world away, but the decker - who can vector all the hell that your surroundings have to offer in on you - can kill you from anywhere if she's reasonably competent.  The detective above is similar to the decker, in that they aren't going to be lifting the gun, or necessarily hacking you themselves; that's why there are BOLOs, and APBs, and APCs, and FRTs, and every nasty thing that the military-backed 'polite' municipal security service called Knight Errant possesses: to bring your sorry monofilament-whip-wielding self to justice, whether that's official or unofficial ...
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Mirikon

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« Reply #5 on: <08-15-17/1715:54> »
Chainsaws and monowhips cause really, really messy fight scenes. These are the kind of scenes that tabloids and even legit news sources love to get pictures of. These are the kinds of scenes that make runners look like serial killers. These are the kinds of scenes that give a street sam the same kind of heat as a mage dropping mind control or permanent transmutation magic on people.
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ShadowcatX

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« Reply #6 on: <08-15-17/1736:37> »
Chainsaws and monowhips cause really, really messy fight scenes. These are the kind of scenes that tabloids and even legit news sources love to get pictures of. These are the kinds of scenes that make runners look like serial killers. These are the kinds of scenes that give a street sam the same kind of heat as a mage dropping mind control or permanent transmutation magic on people.

Sure, if the Corp wants to bring news media into their super secret and totally illegal base for them to take pictures. I mean it is terrible PR for the corp and will tank their stock prices, but it could be a thing. (Especially as a "sabotage someone else in the corp" revenge / promotion seeking type thing.)

Beta

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« Reply #7 on: <08-15-17/2102:17> »
And it will likely add to their notoriety. Maybe not every time, but enough times that soon they'll have a rep for that.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #8 on: <08-15-17/2222:53> »
Chainsaws and monowhips cause really, really messy fight scenes. These are the kind of scenes that tabloids and even legit news sources love to get pictures of. These are the kinds of scenes that make runners look like serial killers. These are the kinds of scenes that give a street sam the same kind of heat as a mage dropping mind control or permanent transmutation magic on people.

Sure, if the Corp wants to bring news media into their super secret and totally illegal base for them to take pictures. I mean it is terrible PR for the corp and will tank their stock prices, but it could be a thing. (Especially as a "sabotage someone else in the corp" revenge / promotion seeking type thing.)

Oh, how wonderfully untainted you are.
  • Corporations own the news media.  They don't have to say where you attacked, or what the location was for; a 'think tank' can be anything, and pass around the nachos, you're on the 9 o'clock.
  • If they want people especially horrified at what you've done, all they have to do is shift the location of your attack to a 'think tank' location in the middle of town which they can claim is secure, but that it's low security and they'll share what information they have because of such an egregious crime.
  • If it's especially nasty, they'll recreate the scene - or even move the entire thing - to a location they CAN let 'independent news media' into.  They might (though probably not) even let external law enforcement in to take a look.  They'd at the very least share the information.

So using a weapon like these is absolutely ... well, however you want to look at it.  Pink mohawk, stylistic, making a statement, getting messy, whatever.  It'll make people pay attention, that's for sure.  And like Beta says, it's sure to give you a rep.
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Rosa

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« Reply #9 on: <08-15-17/2311:21> »
Lots of great ideas in the posts above. I would add that you would be perfectly justified in slapping a distinctive style negative quality on the player to add to the feeling of heat building as a result of their actions and choices. I mean who's gonna remember the guy using an Ares Predator? Well everyone and their mother uses those.  Who's gonna remember the guy using a monofilament chainsaw?  Everyone!   

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #10 on: <08-15-17/2345:54> »
Chainsaws and monowhips cause really, really messy fight scenes. These are the kind of scenes that tabloids and even legit news sources love to get pictures of. These are the kinds of scenes that make runners look like serial killers. These are the kinds of scenes that give a street sam the same kind of heat as a mage dropping mind control or permanent transmutation magic on people.

Sure, if the Corp wants to bring news media into their super secret and totally illegal base for them to take pictures. I mean it is terrible PR for the corp and will tank their stock prices, but it could be a thing. (Especially as a "sabotage someone else in the corp" revenge / promotion seeking type thing.)

Oh, how wonderfully untainted you are.
  • Corporations own the news media.  They don't have to say where you attacked, or what the location was for; a 'think tank' can be anything, and pass around the nachos, you're on the 9 o'clock.
  • If they want people especially horrified at what you've done, all they have to do is shift the location of your attack to a 'think tank' location in the middle of town which they can claim is secure, but that it's low security and they'll share what information they have because of such an egregious crime.
  • If it's especially nasty, they'll recreate the scene - or even move the entire thing - to a location they CAN let 'independent news media' into.  They might (though probably not) even let external law enforcement in to take a look.  They'd at the very least share the information.

So using a weapon like these is absolutely ... well, however you want to look at it.  Pink mohawk, stylistic, making a statement, getting messy, whatever.  It'll make people pay attention, that's for sure.  And like Beta says, it's sure to give you a rep.

If they are willing to go that far what's to stop them from faking scenes when you don't leave a body count behind?

What Shadowrunners are willing to work for a corp that burns Shadowrunners on the news media? Shadowrunners aren't the only ones with a rep to worry about.

Shadowrunners exist. For that to be true, corps can't burn every Shadowrunner who hits them on the 9 O'Clock news.

Marcus

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« Reply #11 on: <08-16-17/0100:43> »
Eh in the grand scheme of things they are just high damage melee weapons.
Yeah the illegality level is a good point, you start leaving mono-whiped/chainsawed corpses piling up and you start drawing attention.  But that's still more a second order issue.
Fighting wise just deal with it like you deal with any melee centric build. Shoot'em guns/spells/arrow whatever you feel like. If your looking for something a little more silly, you can Deploy hacker regularly and you can probably convince your users to keep them wirelessly off, which can add back in old risk factors back. It's fairly amusing how many mono-whip build actually skimp on edge. Large die pools do a good job insulating against glitches, but I've seen 18+ die critically glitch before, its rare but it happens.   
In the long run, I think most players drift away from that sort of hardware. Guns with Stick-n-shocks just get the job done better.



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Mirikon

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« Reply #12 on: <08-16-17/0316:01> »
Chainsaws and monowhips cause really, really messy fight scenes. These are the kind of scenes that tabloids and even legit news sources love to get pictures of. These are the kinds of scenes that make runners look like serial killers. These are the kinds of scenes that give a street sam the same kind of heat as a mage dropping mind control or permanent transmutation magic on people.

Sure, if the Corp wants to bring news media into their super secret and totally illegal base for them to take pictures. I mean it is terrible PR for the corp and will tank their stock prices, but it could be a thing. (Especially as a "sabotage someone else in the corp" revenge / promotion seeking type thing.)

Oh, how wonderfully untainted you are.
  • Corporations own the news media.  They don't have to say where you attacked, or what the location was for; a 'think tank' can be anything, and pass around the nachos, you're on the 9 o'clock.
  • If they want people especially horrified at what you've done, all they have to do is shift the location of your attack to a 'think tank' location in the middle of town which they can claim is secure, but that it's low security and they'll share what information they have because of such an egregious crime.
  • If it's especially nasty, they'll recreate the scene - or even move the entire thing - to a location they CAN let 'independent news media' into.  They might (though probably not) even let external law enforcement in to take a look.  They'd at the very least share the information.

So using a weapon like these is absolutely ... well, however you want to look at it.  Pink mohawk, stylistic, making a statement, getting messy, whatever.  It'll make people pay attention, that's for sure.  And like Beta says, it's sure to give you a rep.

If they are willing to go that far what's to stop them from faking scenes when you don't leave a body count behind?

What Shadowrunners are willing to work for a corp that burns Shadowrunners on the news media? Shadowrunners aren't the only ones with a rep to worry about.

Shadowrunners exist. For that to be true, corps can't burn every Shadowrunner who hits them on the 9 O'Clock news.

ALL the corps burn Shadowrunners in the news media. Sure, they usually call them 'terrorists', but burns are burns. And the way you don't get burned in the media is by not leaving a facility looking like a Jackson Pollack painting done in blood. This is where the SHADOW part comes in. As in, not making a big, flashy scene that the Corp HAS to respond to. You go in with an AK-97 and tactical gear (including masks), make clean kills, and limit collateral damage, and you're not going to find yourself on the news, unless whatever you hit was already in the public eye. You go in with chainsaws and monowhips, leaving bodies in pieces, and that's going to make people want to come find you. That's the kind of thing that brings heat on you, and the corp can spin anything bad at the facility as unimportant, because look what those horrible psychotic terrorists did! What makes more of an impact on the general populace, a drone strike taking out twenty people in some middle eastern city you've never heard of, or terrorists cutting one guy's head off on a live stream?

Corps don't burn Runners who stay low key, unless they hit something insanely high profile. Don't care how good you are, you hit a member of a AAA corp's board, you best NEVER let it get linked back to you, even if it was another board member who ordered the hit. ESPECIALLY if it was another board member who ordered the hit. Same with stealing millions of nuyen from a company. You do big things, and they'll come after you, with any and every tool at their disposal, including the media.

Hell, there's even a difference between using a sword and using a chainsaw. Yes, both will kill you dead. But the chainsaw is messier, and leaves a more visceral impression on people than a sword. You see someone's head cut off by a katana, that's nasty, but it isn't completely outside what you expect. You see someone take a chainsaw and go cutting torsos in half long-ways, and that freaks the hell out of people. Frightened people lean really hard towards the 'kill it with fire' button.
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ShadowcatX

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« Reply #13 on: <08-16-17/0741:04> »
Realistically there is probably more mess with an AK than with a monowhip (chainsaw will be messier, of course). Bullets are going to cause bleeding and maybe even spray brain matter / what have you around. A monowhip isn't going to leave a big enough opening for blood to run out unless you buy that it literally cuts them in half in a single strike (unlikely, especially if it doesn't even exceed their overflow).

That said I have never seen anyone make the "messy kills = unplayable" when a barehanded adept is punching for 14+ damage a hit (ghouls and ghost someone's torso much) or when someone picks a grenade, chooses a fireball spell, or summons a spirit.

Also, if it happens "all the time" no one cares, they have seen it all before. Also, remember the setting, no one leaves their home without armor and guns are marketed towards kids. People are no stranger to violence.
« Last Edit: <08-16-17/0755:40> by ShadowcatX »

Marcus

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« Reply #14 on: <08-16-17/0849:13> »
We have the notoriety system for a reason.
A team that piles up bodies they aren't being pad to wack is bad for business.
Doing it with weapons that are rated F just speeds reaction level and amount of force the authority (both Governmental and Corp) are going to respond with.
There is no doubt that AAA Mega's will burn runners, in the media, on a run, or even just b/c so long as it's good for business. There no shortage of discussion of runs that were simply intended to get teams killed.

Arguing which is more messy a chainsaw or an assault rifle is fairly meaningless distinction. How good the reporter/spin doctor/corporate image specialist is good at selling it as public enemy number one is much more relevant. They Say a prosecutor can get a grand jury to charge a ham sandwich. Well a gifted journalist should be able to spin a tale into public furor despite the jaded nature of our distopian future.
« Last Edit: <08-16-17/0853:22> by Marcus »
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