Author Topic: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana  (Read 1113 times)

Marcus

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #30 on: (23:25:50/09-20-17) »
I'm not jumping up and down saying we should have this spell, it is against the traditions of SR. I'm just saying I don't have an issue with it existing. As Reaver pointed out, it's like Epic Spells, back in 3.5, it's better not to escalate. But if someone goes there all bets are off.

Mirikon

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #31 on: (00:34:31/09-21-17) »
As someone who has used custom spells in past editions (made with the spell creation rules, of course), I always made sure to run ANY custom spell past the GM prior to picking it up, even if I was just reskinning Flamethrower into something Ice-themed. Some of those spells I had were permanent transmutations (a permanent Petrify for instance). However, I probably only used it on a live combatant once or twice over the course of 4th Edition. Not because it wasn't effective, but because it was TOO effective. I had a gentleman's agreement with the GM that I could have the spell, but I would follow Wheaton's Law, and if I didn't, then the Geek the Mage First thing was getting dialed up to 11, or I'd get jumped by a black bag squad so a megacorp R&D lab can 'study' the spell. Either way, abusing the spell would lead to very severe consequences. Most of the time, I used it as a creative way to dispose of bodies, selling off my 'artwork' for the better-looking pieces. Anyone I used the spell on had already been taken out of combat, so it was a matter of expedited cleanup and getting out of dodge than hitting an 'I WIN' button.
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Jack_Spade

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #32 on: (04:24:08/09-21-17) »
You mean bound spirits assisting with learning? That's literally spirits just helping you learn spells you can already learn, not spirits teaching unique abilities.

There are plenty of examples of powers and abilities that are unique to critters/spirits. They often work on a completely different level than mortal magic.

Touch-range spell (aka, second layer of defense), and it still has the same drain code of an indirect area combat spell, seems fair. It only destroys organs (which is what causes the Body reduction) if you manage to touch the chest. At two or three net successes it reduces Body by 1, at 4 or more it can do more. Fairly arbitrary if you ask me, if it came up in my game I would probably have it destroy an organ for every 2 net hits.

A pretty nasty effect, but fitting for the description. Its a negative health spell effectively causing necrosis. It's definitely a permanent effect, but it works pretty much on the same level as most Combat spells. Sure, you can kill somebody with spells, but it isn't exactly guaranteed, and even still it fits within the confines of our defined magical system.

A Manipulation spell that transforms the target into a completely different form permanently does not. Sustained? sure, but altering a creature's form into something completely different, and having that change cement and become irreversible is not what Manipulation spells do.

No, I mean the new quality in FA that allows a spirit to teach you 4 times a year various mortal magics

That is no proof whatsoever that mortals can't learn a form of that magic. Point in fact, I can have a PC using the crystalize ability. Granted, you need to jump through a few hoops (great spirit invocation of a crystaline entity and having enough successes for the endowment power), but after that you functionally have a way for a PC to permanently turn someone to stone (No they're minerals, Jesus Marie!).

So by that logic you'd be ok with a permanent turn to stone spell as long as it's touch range?
The "confines of the magical system" haven't been defined yet, except for the old adages "No resurrection", "No teleportation" and "No time travel".
There is no official system (yet) to design spells like in SR4 where such a spell was explicitly possible.
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Mirikon

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #33 on: (04:57:27/09-21-17) »
Possible, but extremely not recommended.

Permanent transmutations are rare. They do exist, since all manner of magical weirdness is out there, but they are rare. Meaning that any spell you got that did that would be custom made, not something just anyone could get. Meaning you'd need to either make it yourself (with Arcana) or source it through a contact (which might be a run all its own). And using rare magic where there are witnesses is a great way to get a black bag invitation to a megacorp 'research group', or an unfortunate case of high velocity lead poisoning.

EDIT: But as with anything custom or not explicitly in the rules, you need GM approval for it first. And they'd definitely be within their rights to throw it out or modify it if they think it would be a problem for their game. If you're looking for a cool trick to use all the time, that's probably going to get you dead. If you're looking for an ace in the hole, to only be pulled out when you really, really need it, that is more likely to be accepted by most.
« Last Edit: (05:08:34/09-21-17) by Mirikon »
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Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #34 on: (06:04:58/09-21-17) »
Chosen Follower is still just learning normal spells, just like Assisted Learning from Bound Spirits it doesn't give you access to a different spell list. I don't see how that has any bearing on what should and should not be a spell.

Jumping through all those hoops to get access to Crystallize (good luck Binding a Crystalline Entity, let alone trying to Invoke its great form) is still not normal spellcasting. It is literally just giving a human temporary access to a spirit power. So still not reason for a spell.

While there may not be rules for spell creation in the current edition, we still have parameters to go by. There are plenty of examples of spells to look at, and none of them do the "permanent transmutation thing"

EDIT: oh, and since you mentioned the 4E rules, the creation of this spell is explicitly NOT ALLOWED. I quoted the appropriate text back on the first page of this thread. But the creation guidelines in Street Magic specifically said that spells that don't restore a being to its natural state shouldn't be permanent.
« Last Edit: (06:12:58/09-21-17) by Kiirnodel »

Mirikon

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #35 on: (11:48:10/09-21-17) »
Point of order, Kiirnodel. "Shouldn't" is a far cry from "cannot". Cannot means it is not possible, under any circumstances. Shouldn't means it is very likely to unbalance things and you should be very, very careful with it, if you allow it at all.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #36 on: (12:45:46/09-21-17) »
Fair point, however it's definitely a lot closer than the "explicitly possible" which is what Jack_Spade last said.

There's a specific rule against it.

Mirikon

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #37 on: (13:12:05/09-21-17) »
There's a specific rule saying it is possible, but highly discouraged. In, say, HERO System, this would be where they'd have stop signs in the book to make sure everyone knows this can have gamebreaking potential.

Tread those waters carefully, or you may wish it was only dragons you needed to deal with in the end.
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Senko

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #38 on: (14:07:26/09-21-17) »
To derail the topic a little am I correct in reading the latest posts that to learn Crystalize you need to have a great form cyrstal entity teach you? Its not a spell/ability I've ever paid any attention to as I'm not a fan of turn to stone/crystal spells (which may seem odd given my other posts but there it is).

As for the shapechange spell after thinking about it and reading the other posts I just wanted to clarify I do still feel its thematically appropriate given the stories and legends of such changes however I am willing to work with the current mechanic of quickening which achieves a similar result. That is they are turned into a rabbit and will remain one barring outside intervention but it is not a transformation of their natural stat i.e. its sustained by the spell vs instant (if you see what I mean). Is that an acceptable compromise?

Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #39 on: (16:57:49/09-21-17) »
No, you can't learn the crystallize power. You can temporarily gain access to it by getting a Crystalline Entity to be invoked into great form and gaining the Endowment power. That gives it the ability to grant powers to others temporarily. But at the same time you also now have a great form otherworldly entity that you've kissed off by binding it...

EDIT: And yes, the most straight-forward way to do a "permanent" shapechange is through a normal shapechange spell and then use Quickening to make it self-sustaining.

Mirikon: is there a specific rule that I'm missing somewhere? The rules in 4th edition don't really read that way to me (that is to say, I read them as: here are the guidelines for making balanced spells, not: you can do anything you want, but we don't recommend you go outside this).
The restriction on Permanent spells is written as: Only X, Y, Z, spells should be permanent. It doesn't really seem like it is giving allowance or specifically ruling that otherwise is possible...
« Last Edit: (17:09:59/09-21-17) by Kiirnodel »

Spooky

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #40 on: (17:05:58/09-21-17) »
True, but IMO it's worth it to crystallize a Mother Insect spirit before she starts her hive, and then have my sniper buddy hit her using a Barrett rifle with APDS..... Can you say shatter?
And the spirit might (slim chance, but hey...) not be destructively mad at me afterward.....
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Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #41 on: (17:17:19/09-21-17) »
well, the Crystallize power isn't exactly instantaneous either. It deals damage like a Spirit's Elemental attack. The only exception is that instead of killing, it turns the target into crystal when their condition monitor fills up.

So yeah, even that isn't a great example of one-stop death abilities.

Mirikon

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #42 on: (18:09:07/09-21-17) »
Mirikon: is there a specific rule that I'm missing somewhere? The rules in 4th edition don't really read that way to me (that is to say, I read them as: here are the guidelines for making balanced spells, not: you can do anything you want, but we don't recommend you go outside this).
The restriction on Permanent spells is written as: Only X, Y, Z, spells should be permanent. It doesn't really seem like it is giving allowance or specifically ruling that otherwise is possible...
I'm reading the same rule as you, but I read it differently, Kiirnodel. Especially since, out of everything, there are only a few 'hard stops' in place: reviving the dead, time travel, teleportation, etc.. Everything else is either possible, or may be possible, if someone figures out how.

You are reading 'only X, Y, Z spells should be permanent' as 'only X, Y, Z spells can be permanent', which is not what the language indicates. It is a balance recommendation thing, and I've seen similar language in other games before. It is a warning that going outside of X, Y, Z for permanent spells can cause things to be unbalanced, which is why it states that GM should make the call on whether it is allowed. Compare that language to what is used in the 'Limits of Sorcery' sidebar in that same section, which is distinctly full of language like CANNOT, with not even a hint of being able to ask for GM approval.

When you have things that are explicitly disallowed, that implies that everything else is possible. But as Ian Malcolm would say, you can get too focused on whether you could do something to think on whether you should, which is why you have the language we're both referencing.

So, by everything I've seen, it is not against the rules to make a permanent petrify spell, but it can unbalance a game quickly, just like something such as superspeed can screw with a game in a superhero system. So you need to be aware of the pitfalls before they happen. It is like on old maps where people wrote "Here be Dragons". Doesn't mean you CANNOT go there, but, well, probably not a great idea unless you really know what you're doing.
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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #43 on: (22:52:52/09-21-17) »
Yeah, ok. I can see where you're coming from. But people need to stop saying things like it is "explicitly possible."

Like you pointed out, the phrasing is not hard stop, but taking the allowance as granted is definitely not there either.

It is implicitly not impossible. The rules never say you can, just doesn't say you can't.

Mirikon

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #44 on: (23:07:13/09-21-17) »
Exactly. Which would put it in the category of 'rare and/or unique magic'. Which means getting it would either require investment in the Arcana skill, or possibly a run to get the spell formula from someone who does, and then using the thing where there are any witnesses is a good way to get a whole lot of heat drawn on you, over and above whatever else your run brings your way. There are plenty of 'in game' ways to discourage a player from abusing such spells if they become problematic.
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