Author Topic: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana  (Read 1094 times)

SunRunner

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #15 on: (15:08:40/09-19-17) »
Yeah and if your dealing with a guy with a Magic of 10 and casting a Force 20 spell and sinking 20 karma into said quickening it should be hard as hell to dispel but I find those numbers to be pretty unrealistic unless you happen to be trying to dispell something cast by a Great dragon or Harlequin.  Lets keep our stats in the realm of mere mortals and go with say Magic 7, force 7 and 7 karma for quickening which would be 21 Dice which is scary, I guess you could go to force 14 but then the casting mage has a hell of a physical drain check to deal with. And who the hell wants to spend 14 karma on this project any ways. I mean I guess if you REALLY pissed off the wicked witch of the west or some such it might happen. But then your also forgetting they can have a counter spelling skill of 12 (14 with specialization or since were not playing in the mortal play ground lets roll with 15 for exceptional skill of 13) Magic of 6 and I am at a matching 21 dice pool already add in a counter spell focus or a power focus of force 6 and your up to 27 dice which means I beat the 21 dice only thing I might have a problem with is the limit but spend some edge to bust the limit and add some dice or more likely re roll the failures since our pool is huge. Its like any other opposed test in the game if you got people playing on the same level they got a shot.  Even if you go with the force 14 + 14 karma option for a pool of 35 it still do able with edge getting involved. As a general rule dispelling sucks because its an uphill battle but some times it needs to happen and that is what edge is for.

Reaver

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #16 on: (15:35:11/09-19-17) »
If you are spending 20 Karma to quicken a single spell, I suggest 1 of the following has happened:

You have too much karma.

You have too much money  (trading $$ for karma)

Your GM has lot his grip on resources

You are playing an extremely high powered game!




I have been playing the same character since 1e, and the most I have ever sank into quickening was 4 Karma... and I have earned just north of 5000 karma.

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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Marcus

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #17 on: (16:56:52/09-19-17) »
I don't see an issue with it. We have books upon books of guns, knives, martial arts, lasers, poisons, nerve agents, Spells, Drones, explosives, spirits and even Para critters. Hell we even have rules for radiation. Finding ways to kill people is totally rampant. If some poor mage just can't bring themselves to One less some particular problem person, and they feel compelled to turn someone into a rabbit quicken the spell, and then drop them on the isle rabbit. Lest any of a fair long list of things don't accidentally turn said bunny back.  Why the heck not? A bullet would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and more definite but to each their own.

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #18 on: (19:27:24/09-19-17) »
I don't see an issue with it. We have books upon books of guns, knives, martial arts, lasers, poisons, nerve agents, Spells, Drones, explosives, spirits and even Para critters. Hell we even have rules for radiation. Finding ways to kill people is totally rampant. If some poor mage just can't bring themselves to One less some particular problem person, and they feel compelled to turn someone into a rabbit quicken the spell, and then drop them on the isle rabbit. Lest any of a fair long list of things don't accidentally turn said bunny back.  Why the heck not? A bullet would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and more definite but to each their own.


It's all good and fine until the GM looks at you and says:

"Roll body/willpower please. Ok, You are now a house at. Forever."

"Nope. It's forever. You can't dispel it. You are forever a house cat. Please roll a new character."



Only to have that repeated in another game...

There is a reason why many games have moved away from "Save or Die" mechanics (like saving throws in AD&D and 2e).

Now, the argument has been made that it's the same as shooting them. It's not. When you shoot there are 2 tests involved. The attack test and the damage resistance test. 2 attempts to potentially save your character. (Or reduce damage, and save your character!).

With what is being suggested, this is not the case. There is a simple resist roll that is a simple Pass/Fail: pass the test and nothing happens. Fail the test, game over. (Or at least for all intents)

Not a mechanic that endears you to players...


Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Marcus

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #19 on: (23:12:39/09-19-17) »
I don't see an issue with it. We have books upon books of guns, knives, martial arts, lasers, poisons, nerve agents, Spells, Drones, explosives, spirits and even Para critters. Hell we even have rules for radiation. Finding ways to kill people is totally rampant. If some poor mage just can't bring themselves to One less some particular problem person, and they feel compelled to turn someone into a rabbit quicken the spell, and then drop them on the isle rabbit. Lest any of a fair long list of things don't accidentally turn said bunny back.  Why the heck not? A bullet would have been a lot cheaper, more efficient and more definite but to each their own.


It's all good and fine until the GM looks at you and says:

"Roll body/willpower please. Ok, You are now a house at. Forever."

"Nope. It's forever. You can't dispel it. You are forever a house cat. Please roll a new character."



Only to have that repeated in another game...

There is a reason why many games have moved away from "Save or Die" mechanics (like saving throws in AD&D and 2e).

Now, the argument has been made that it's the same as shooting them. It's not. When you shoot there are 2 tests involved. The attack test and the damage resistance test. 2 attempts to potentially save your character. (Or reduce damage, and save your character!).

With what is being suggested, this is not the case. There is a simple resist roll that is a simple Pass/Fail: pass the test and nothing happens. Fail the test, game over. (Or at least for all intents)

Not a mechanic that endears you to players...

If it was mana kill spell i'd have same Chance Reaver.  Killing characters is usually unpopular at most table, that's not news.

I've lost characters in shadowrun before and I will again. This actually arguably better as your party could possibly find you and bring you back. Your aura is still your aura and there way to locate those.
 
I stand by this just another way to kill characters. We have no shortage, and odds are we are only going to get more.. 

Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #20 on: (04:07:31/09-20-17) »
Except that there are no spells where it kills you and you're done.

Do you mean a spell that damages you until you're dead? Those need to do a significant amount of damage, and even then you have protections from death by damage.

All of the other spells that could "kill" you, such as Petrify, Turn to Goo, etc. are all actually Sustained spells, so they only last as long as the mage can sustain them. This also means that there is a spell in place that can be dispelled, ending the effect.

Making a Shapechange spell that could be actually Permanent (not just Quickened, and therefore Sustained indefinitely) means there isn't a way to reverse or end the effect.

Jack_Spade

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #21 on: (04:52:32/09-20-17) »
Except that just such an option already exists with the crystalize power (and the fitting ritual to reverse the process)
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Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #22 on: (05:46:04/09-20-17) »
Critter Power exclusive to a unique, rare spirit does not mean that there should be a spell for that.

Jack_Spade

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #23 on: (05:55:40/09-20-17) »
It just shows that there is no IP reason for such a spell not to exist.

Getting one-shotted sucks, but there are already a few options in the game that achieve just that and allow you only one resistance check to avoid your fate (Contact vector toxins, mana spells, baleful transformation shapechange into a fish, disruption, turn to goo while standing over a grate, explosive traps, etc.)

So even on a conceptional level this wouldn't be a change in design philosophy.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #24 on: (06:55:40/09-20-17) »
Actually, setting-wise, it makes perfect sense for there to be abilities available to otherworldy beings that are beyond the means of mortal magic.

So, just because a Spirit can do something, really doesn't mean that humans should be able to do something similar.


And I will reiterate, I don't have any problem with the idea of a baleful tranmutation, only with the suggestion that there should be a way to have one that is innately permanent.

On a side-note, I'm not sure I would consider any of those "options" as "one resistance check to avoid your fate"
Contact vector toxins - even immediate ones allow for a brief window where additional bonuses can be gained (Also, most are non-lethal).
Mana spells - while yes, allow only one check to resist, have been mostly sidelined due to the tiny amount of damage they deal. One spell is unlikely to doom anyone.
Baleful tranformation - Even into a fish, I know that I would give a PC chances to make resistance checks against suffocation, giving them time before they are dead for someone else to take out the mage and undo the spell.
Turn to Goo - The result of the spell is still mostly solid, I've always imagined it as an instant Gelatin substance, otherwise cast on anyone would just result in them falling over and being a puddle on the ground.

Jack_Spade

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #25 on: (07:48:33/09-20-17) »
That's a pretty arbitrary distinction - considering that there are spirits that teach spells and rituals to mortals, I'd say there is little reason to assume that there is more than conceptual limitations at work.

To turn your sentence around:
Just because so far only a spirit can do something, really doesn't mean that humans couldn't learn to do something similar.

So what? Adding boni to resistance tests is something you can do for all spells through counter magic and it's equivalents.
Mana spells prepared by a alchemist bomb maker can take down even a troll in one swoop - it's not even particularly difficult
Of course you as a GM can give players more tests to resist. It's just not RAW.
A "sticky, glue like substance" doesn't sound like something that would keep it's shape - especially not if it's not on solid ground.

But ignoring that for a moment: What about the Rot spell?
Single resistance test, get enough net successes and you permanently lower a subjects body. If you manage to lower it to 0 they die. Duration I.
That's an innately permanent effect.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #26 on: (16:36:41/09-20-17) »
That's a pretty arbitrary distinction - considering that there are spirits that teach spells and rituals to mortals, I'd say there is little reason to assume that there is more than conceptual limitations at work.
You mean bound spirits assisting with learning? That's literally spirits just helping you learn spells you can already learn, not spirits teaching unique abilities.

To turn your sentence around:
Just because so far only a spirit can do something, really doesn't mean that humans couldn't learn to do something similar.
There are plenty of examples of powers and abilities that are unique to critters/spirits. They often work on a completely different level than mortal magic.

But ignoring that for a moment: What about the Rot spell?
Single resistance test, get enough net successes and you permanently lower a subjects body. If you manage to lower it to 0 they die. Duration I.
That's an innately permanent effect.
Touch-range spell (aka, second layer of defense), and it still has the same drain code of an indirect area combat spell, seems fair. It only destroys organs (which is what causes the Body reduction) if you manage to touch the chest. At two or three net successes it reduces Body by 1, at 4 or more it can do more. Fairly arbitrary if you ask me, if it came up in my game I would probably have it destroy an organ for every 2 net hits.

A pretty nasty effect, but fitting for the description. Its a negative health spell effectively causing necrosis. It's definitely a permanent effect, but it works pretty much on the same level as most Combat spells. Sure, you can kill somebody with spells, but it isn't exactly guaranteed, and even still it fits within the confines of our defined magical system.

A Manipulation spell that transforms the target into a completely different form permanently does not. Sustained? sure, but altering a creature's form into something completely different, and having that change cement and become irreversible is not what Manipulation spells do.

adzling

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #27 on: (18:44:17/09-20-17) »
1). historically shadowrun has not permitted such instantaneous and permanent transformations due to setting lore.

2). The errata team has issues with the bullshit "create food" spell, it may not live past the errata process if the errata process ever gets back on track.
Clearly whoever wrote that spell knew little about srun setting lore or magic in particular.

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #28 on: (20:52:55/09-20-17) »
So ... yeah.  Sorry, Jack Spade; there are reasons to not do such things.
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Re: two unrelated questions brought on by forbidden arcana
« Reply #29 on: (21:19:16/09-20-17) »
My point being, "If you think something is a good idea game wise: Think of it being used against you"

Most people have "cool" ideas. Be it spells from other settings, to sci-fi weapons that defy basic science, but when it comes to implementation into an actual game, they fall flat.

This is such an idea. Simply because there is no balance to it and it seems ABUSE from the high heavens! This has all the hallmarks of a Mary Sue power. There is no counter, there is no/little resistance to it, it has a massive effect for a small cost, it replaces multiple options of offense, AND can be used to bypass negative qualities.

1: as a permanent effect, it can not be removed, reversed, or misspelled. Once it takes effect, that is it.
2:  since it causes no damage or no physical harm, those that have negative qualities that prevent or reduce combat effectiveness through violence will just use this.
3: there is no point to use ANY other combat or control spells as this single one has no down sides! Low successes needed to remove a combatant from combat forever. No need to sustain. No need for multiple castings to reduce the health pool (a-la friendly, ball lightning, etc).


But, you have the power to do whatever you want at your table. Including introducing new spells,  technology, threats, or abilities.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.