Author Topic: Match grade barrel and ammo  (Read 826 times)

psycho835

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Match grade barrel and ammo
« on: (19:39:01/05-04-17) »
Hoi, chummers.
So I was reading Gun H(e)aven 3 the other day, and I noticed that Mihoshi Oni mentioned match barrel in entry on Krime Spree SMG. One quick search later, I realized that there is no such thing. And I decided to rectify that.
Thing is, I've never shot a gun IRL, and I have NO idea how much using a match grade barrel and/or ammo improves accuracy. So, to all the gun bunnies out there: help me figure it out.

So far all I have is +1 die for barrel or ammo, +2 dice and +1 Accuracy for both. Match grade barrel is compatible with long barrel mod (and short barrel too, if your table treats it as a special barrel instead of a sawn-off).
Thoughts?

Adamo1618

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 271
  • The Bearded Avenger
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #1 on: (05:34:53/05-05-17) »
*Reaver rubs his hands*
"Home is the place where you can perform the helicopter to Korpiklaani without shame."
 - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
_ _.--´--.
'--O---O-'

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5387
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #2 on: (00:37:23/05-06-17) »
Sadly Adamo, I don't own gun haven 3, so I have no idea of the context of the term "match barrel".


But it is true that the barrel is probably THE most important factor to the accuracy of a gun. That said, there has not been much change in the barrel design in about 100 years.

After all, at it's core, a barrel is just a rifled tube. The changes of late has been in the materials that go into the barrel. Newer, stronger, higher heat resistant and higher heat dissipation is where the research is at, with some pretty impressive advances.

But this where the question is at: "Can you change out an engineered barrel for an other engineered barrel and get a large enough mechanical change as to warrant a mechanical advantage in game..."

*MY OPINION*

No. The advantage of changing out a barrel (without knowing the context of the term "match barrel" as used in Gun Haven 3) would be in other areas.... And wouldn't have enough effect on the actual grouping of shots done from a static position to a static target... Not when there is so many other factors that go into the final accuracy of a shot.

For there to be an actual mechanical (dice) modifier given in game, I would expect there to be a much larger difference...

like  the +1 bonus a laser (red dot) site gives over free arming (basically pointing the barrel and NOT site lining the shot - that would be Aiming!)... or the +2 advantage of a smartlink pumping that info directly into your eye.....

BUT

that's only my opinion.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

psycho835

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #3 on: (17:50:31/05-06-17) »
Context:
Quote
A new telescoping bolt design intended for those needing
alternative ergonomics, the Spree is an economic
choice for the discriminating shooter. The design is intended
to allow for the easy mounting of a wide array of
external aiming and tactical aids. While Krime does not
currently manufacture such devices, a call to our friendly
Customer Service department will provide a number of
helpful suggestions based on the caller’s location.
Standard Upgrades/Accessories: Metahuman
Adaptation

> While I appreciate the attention to the ergonomic details, I’m
less appreciative of the poorly manufactured action and barrel.
I know they charge extra for a match barrel, but you shouldn’t
have to buy it for reasonable accuracy.
> Mihoshi Oni
> The action is a pretty simple open-bolt, blowback design.
The problem really is the barrel’s rifling—the twist rate hurts
accuracy at standard combat ranges.
> Beaker

Plus stats:
Accuracy: 4
DV: 7P
AP: 0
Mode: FA
RC: 1
Ammo: 30(c)
Availability: 6R
Cost: 425Y
« Last Edit: (17:55:00/05-06-17) by psycho835 »

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5387
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #4 on: (10:57:35/05-07-17) »
Thank you for the context.

What mihoshi says still doesn't make much sense to me... it might of to writer... but not me.


Beaker gives me more insight though. Basically Beaker is saying the rifling of the barrel is crap, and its not adding enough spin to the bullets, resulting in a 'tumbling' of the bullet through the air.


Would a better rifled barrel fix this? Maybe.

There is a lot of science to a gun and a gun barrel. The rifling twists the bullet as it travels down the barrel... but this also means the rifling creates friction. With friction, you end up with a back up of pressure... There is a fine line between adding more spinn to the bullet and creating a blow back situation. (A blow back means the gasses escape back toward the shooter... usually taking most of the breech with it a high speeds! AKA the gun turn into a bomb and exploded in your face!!).

But the game never really goes into THAT much detail. (Heck, they even simplfy a lot of gun and combat terms!).

I can tell you that barrels are expensive, even factory produced ones! (Replaced my Ruger .44 mag barrel going from 6" to 10" at the cost of $850. About the same as the total gun cost)
A speciality barrel custom made?? A couple of thousand. Easy.

And again, "would it make enough of a difference to warrent a mechanical change to the game?"

MY OPINION: again no. There are a lot of factors that go into an accurate shot. 80% of them have to do with the shooter. Stance, weapon handling, heart rate, breath control.
A good shooter can make a piss poor weapon perform. But a shitty shooter can't make a percision weapon perform...

But that is only MY opinion.


If you want to a option to your game, i would ho this route:

Custom rifled barrel.
Cost: $1000/$2000/$3000 (pistol, sub, rifle. NO shotgun option)
+1 to the base accuracy of the weapon.


"Why so expensive?" - custom work costs. And the fact that accuracy in SR is more of a weapon quality thing. With generally crappy made weapons having poor accuracy then better made, more expensive weapons.

<my 7x57mm is the most accurate rifle I own. Its also a $9000 rifle.... before optics)


Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

psycho835

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 618
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #5 on: (12:30:37/05-08-17) »
Thanks Reaver, this might come in handy. BTW, 9000$ rifle? *whistles*

Achsin

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 56
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #6 on: (16:04:40/05-08-17) »
"Match grade" in a firearms context is basically "mastercraft." It refers to components that are manufactured with tighter tolerances which (generally) leads to greater performance. The term originates from the components being improved or otherwise sufficiently better manufactured such that they are suitable for use in a competitive match (hence match grade) where the little details have a higher impact on the shooter's performance.

It's also a bit of a marketing thing.

I would use the rules from Hard Targets for hand loaded ammo and for the long barrel modification (if you have the book) for match grade ammo/barrels.

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5387
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #7 on: (20:01:37/05-08-17) »
Thankyou Achsin,

Where I 'm from, the term is 'Tooled'.

Now the context makes more sense.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Duellist_D

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #8 on: (13:51:55/05-09-17) »
Thank you for the context.

<my 7x57mm is the most accurate rifle I own. Its also a $9000 rifle.... before optics)

Just out of curiosity:
Mexican G98 or something else?

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5387
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #9 on: (14:05:47/05-09-17) »
No.

Its a German 7x57mm Mauser barrel and lock designed in 1938 for marksmanship. Set into a hand carved and stained English white oak furniture.

The provindence of the serial number tells me it was used for 'civil milita' during WW2 (whatever that is/was). But it unknown how it got the oak furniture or ended up in Canada. Best guess is War Spoils....

I use it for hunting Deer. :P
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Duellist_D

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #10 on: (14:41:18/05-09-17) »
Interesting.
Civil Militia, huh?
You mean "Volkssturm", by chance?
That would explain the weird Mauser Caliber for military use.

Reaver

  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5387
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #11 on: (15:55:49/05-09-17) »
No idea, the serial history papers are all in english, so no idea what the german word was.


Its not an offical military Lock or barrel. It carries no military stamps on any parts, it was clearly made for the civil market. But things change in Wartime, and civilian weapons find military use...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Duellist_D

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 208
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #12 on: (12:08:02/05-22-17) »
Yeah, thats what i was trying to  say.
The Caliber was used for civilian guns, the military ones has been usually different.
Quite a lot of stuff got repurposed for the Volkssturm (sorta last resort militia) and earlier, during the time when post ww1 had still been in practical effect so its probably a child of those circumstances.

Dominious

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #13 on: (11:32:07/06-14-17) »
Perhaps I might weigh in on this. See, before retiring, my profession was as a Gunsmith. I would be happy to address any questions beyond the scope of this post.

As to the post about the Krime Spree; Well here's the deal, granted, the game mechanics as they stand now, do not really provide for match grade customization of firearms. Other than the previously stated Hard Targets information.
The Mauser that one of the other posters mentioned it an extreme example at the top end of the spectrum. At the bottom would be my Glock. I have a drop in Match grade barrel for it. Cost; 145 dollars plus tax and shipping. And that is for a 550-600 dollar handgun. Mechanics wise what a match grade component does is increase the tolerances and testing of, in this case, the barrel. It has tighter chamber tolerances creating a better gas seal and bullet seat which translates to better accuracy particularly over distance.
I too have a custom match grade rifle. I built it from scratch for me and it is literally one of a kind. What would it cost to have me build one for a customer? 5-7 grand with minimum half up front. Precision parts cost money. Anyone that would like more detailed information is more than welcome to PM me on that so we can talk more specifics. Now, without match ammo a match barrel is of little help. Match ammo is double checked at each stage of production, typically this causes a price increase of 2-3 times the base cost due to the extra steps by a well trained professional.

bangbangtequila

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 441
Re: Match grade barrel and ammo
« Reply #14 on: (12:30:41/08-27-17) »
I'm an amateur long range precision shooter, so maybe I can lend a little theorycraft backed by some observed factors in the realm of high precision rifles. I'll use .308 as my default caliber because it's a very popular long range round and the most common military long range round (aside from the .338 Lapua used by extreme range shooting - but I have much less experience and data on hand for that). There are a couple main factors that affect a barrel's precision: length, rifling, and the incredibly important chamber. I'll break down the basics of how each affects the consistency and accuracy of each shot.

Length: This has two major factors included, being the velocity of the round and the stability. A longer barrel means tiny movements by the shooter using a support will affect muzzle direction in smaller increments. Less movement, more consistent and accurate shots, though this is a minimal factor. The velocity comes from allowing the gas to expand in a confined area for longer and get the maximum acceleration on your round. In a .308 you reach the maximum benefit per inch at around 22", gaining only ~17 fps from going to a 24" if you've got a 1:10 twist. Optimal velocity gives you a flat trajectory and optimal spin on each round. This is definitely important, having the right length for your rifle's calibre and rifling will affect accuracy in a huge way.

Rifling: Quality is important here, but realistically with even today's standards in machining you're not going to see too much of a difference between mid range and high end barrels. It's very easy to do this well, and the extra effort that goes into having someone else break it in isn't really necessary. After about fifty rounds, even cheap precision guns like the savage 10 or Tikka t3 lite are really, really great. The most important aspect is the twist rate. Certain bullet weights and velocities like different twist rates to stabilize properly. A .308 using 168 grain match bullets out of a 22" barrel loves a 1:10 twist. Any less and you lose accuracy past about 500 meters, any more and you lose accuracy at all ranges as it rotates too quickly and destabilizes itself in the air.

Chamber: This one is huge. Having proper spacing means the bullet seats itself perfectly every time, or the round doesn't feed. Removing any yaw from the bullet before firing means you are getting a perfectly consistent shot every time you pull the trigger, and consistency is accuracy. It limits your cartridge options, I know some 7.62 and .308 rounds that don't fit into my favourite budget gun the savage 10, but finding the right one can bring you to .3 MOA at 300 meters. The rifle is more accurate than I am, and that's great.

Hopefully this helps explain why a custom barrel, especially with handloads custom made for your rifle, would justify in game benefits. There are a lot more factors, but they're mostly covered by the rules (custom grip, electric triggers, so on). 

Cheers