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Rigger drone killing - how much is right?

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hulking_troll

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« on: <12-24-16/0423:14> »
I have a rigger in our new group (now into the 5th missions run).

I have only destroyed one noisequito so far. The lynx has been toast twice but in the interest of making sure that beginner error is taken into account I have allowed it to be repaired.

But on average how often to you destroy a riggers drone, especially the noisequito.... which seemed to be the most frequently used device.

Thanks for your help

firebug

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« Reply #1 on: <12-24-16/1239:00> »
You can't (and probably shouldn't) plan around destroying drones.  It just doesn't make sense unless you're building the combat encounters around it, or arbitrarily having the enemies focus on the drone over other targets for no reason.

Generally speaking though, look at the payout:  If drones are getting destroyed with such frequency that the rigger has to spend almost all their money on replacements or repairs, then something is wrong.  It could be the player, the GM, or both, but if the PC ends up unable to save more than a thousand nuyen a month while others are doing whatever they like with 10k+ then something's wrong, and the rigger won't get to actually progress and get upgrades for their drones or get more augmentations.
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DeathofVirtue

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« Reply #2 on: <12-24-16/2231:42> »
  As firebug says.  I mainly GM for a private group but I have played as a pc at a few local tables over the years and one of the most frustrating experiences for me when playing a rigger is GM's purposefully focusing disproportionate amounts of damage/attention on to drones.  It's expensive, frustrating, unfair and frankly a bit of a dick move to pull on your rigger and has lead to me leaving tables in the past. 

  To clarify I'm not saying drones should never be attacked/hacked/destroyed etc, but that it should be proportionate to the situation and not something you plan to destroy before the run (Excluding as a plot device) the same as you don't plan to kill a particular player before a run.  If your rigger is misusing a drone/screws a roll sure it's more likely to be destroyed, but, if they are using them correctly drones should not be being destroyed every other run, short of having to throw them at people to escape.  A good rule of thumb is to get into the heads of your npcs/mooks, if they are focusing on something you should first ask yourself why?  What is the reason 1/2 of my mooks are targeting this person/drone/vehicle over everything else?  If you have 4/5 guys hosing bullets at a drone that's popping some suppresive fire off rather than the rigger ordering them/mage going ham with spirits/troll street sam with an assult cannon etc. without a good reason, your probably doing it wrong.  The enemies the gm controls have brains and while they may not ALWAYS make the most tactically sound choices most factions tactics consist of more than simply "hose bullets downrange at a "random" target the gm picks" and it makes sense to represent this in how they act.  It's one of the reasons the saying "geek the mage first" exists.

  The Noizquito can be a pain, as a gm it's up to you what you allow in your game if it's an issue a simple houserule that it cant stack dp penalties is usually sufficient, it's also worth noting it's description in R5.0 clearly states those penalties can affect teamates in earshot and/or that have direct line of sight with the strobes.  It's not a quiet drone and if it's being used to it's full effect the odds are your groups had to go loud, it's a niche drone with a niche use.

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« Last Edit: <12-24-16/2245:32> by DeathofVirtue »
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hulking_troll

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« Reply #3 on: <12-25-16/0200:34> »
Good advice.

But for example to date the runners have been working in the ruins of Chicago, they haven't had to deal with a spider. There is a run coming up (of my own design) where there will be multiple corp hackers protecting a facility. In your opinion given their current methodology of spamming recon mosquito drones for intel, would it be fair to have the corp hackers spotting the drones and data spiking every one of them that was on their premises as "standard response"? Or is that a dick Gm move? I plan to give them the hint that said facility will have matrix support.

Again thank for your advice.

MijRai

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« Reply #4 on: <12-25-16/1252:30> »
Well, to start I would have the spider attempt to spot the drones.  Don't just start bricking everything, have one get lost at a certain point (when a Perception roll notes one, perchance).  The further the drones go in, the more likely another one goes down.  Eventually they'll figure out 'hey, there's security here' without just wiping out their bank; at that point, throwing more drones at the problem is their choice. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

DeathofVirtue

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« Reply #5 on: <12-25-16/1453:27> »
  As MijRai points out.  Effect follows cause, it doesn't matter if you have 1 drone or 100 in the facility if none of them are spotted or in public areas, if they aren't doing anything to draw attention/distinguish themselves from regular civilian drone traffic why would they be targeted at all?  Enemies don't just "know" somone/thing is tresspassing.  It's why they sink the big bucks into security, surveilance, astral/matrix/meatspace patrolls and it's why groups with experience tend to try the quiet approach, why waste New Yen on bullets, medical care etc from a firefight with corpsec when a good team can bypass them completley undetected?

  It's also worth noting drones can be a staple of good pre-run intell gathering, able to get into and get sensor feed back out of places the group might not be able to go.  In conjunction with decker/techno support they make a valuable addition to any teams recon package, arbritrarily determining the approach to be ineffective is nonsensical.  If the groups done it's homework the odds are they will be able to distinguish how something is being defended and pick apart weak spots in those defences.

  It's also worth mentioning matrix defence is pretty routine in shadowrun, most runner groups know to expect it from anything above low tier street gangs and plan accordingly.   When dealing with about any corp runners should be expecting decker/matrix support against them if they screw up and get spotted.

For basic drone recon I would also point out that with the range of most sensors on drones they don't need to be directly in a corps property to get basic intel and designs like the festo pigeon can merge with local wildlife to further decrease detection risks, or a spirit can use conceal, the recon focused drone designers have been at it for a while and have gotten rather good at what they do, creating drones that generate actionable intel without a tendency to draw attention to themselves too frequently when used right.
« Last Edit: <12-25-16/1652:59> by DeathofVirtue »
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Mr. Black

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« Reply #6 on: <12-26-16/1945:36> »
Another way of looking at this is at the reward level. A runner group could negotiate for drone/vehicle replacement as part of their rewards for the run. A second way is for the group to take funds off the top for drone/vehicle replacement. After all, if the rigger is their main transport system, they should all pitch in to cover costs. This is the basics of a Pirate economy; you pay for the ship and stores first, then everything is split up equally. Otherwise, a group may take their payment in a pool, and each runner gets a number of shares. Runners with a NuYen-draining lifestyle (like riggers) get more shares.

DeathofVirtue

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« Reply #7 on: <12-26-16/2209:45> »
Another way of looking at this is at the reward level. A runner group could negotiate for drone/vehicle replacement as part of their rewards for the run.

  And get your spares/repair work/replacements supplied from the Jonson/employer?  No thanks, I like my drones 3rd party software free, tracker free, explosive "suprise" free and I definatley don't want some fragging corporate lakey greasemonkey I don't know or trust gakking about with my babies, but then I'm paranoid even for a runner.

A second way is for the group to take funds off the top for drone/vehicle replacement. After all, if the rigger is their main transport system, they should all pitch in to cover costs. This is the basics of a Pirate economy; you pay for the ship and stores first, then everything is split up equally. Otherwise, a group may take their payment in a pool, and each runner gets a number of shares. Runners with a NuYen-draining lifestyle (like riggers) get more shares.

  While this is a somewhat valid point about loot distribution it's sidestepping the issues with the op's post rather than adressing them, specifically drones should not be something a gm plans to destroy before a run, a gm should not focus disproportionate amounts of attention onto drones to generate "running costs", predetermining that drones have been/will be spotted in order to destroy them without even making rolls to try and detect or attack/hack them or even waiting to see if they are used in a way that would actually even lead to them drawing attention.

  While loot distribution or negotiating running costs might take the sting out of the cost a bit for some of these issues it does not change the fact that it's unfair gm behaviour that is  targeting a specific member of the group, breaking raw and will likely lead to quick frustration by those affected.  Perhaps the best context for this would be to put the same behaviour in a non rigger context. If you roll well for sneak enter an area and the gm turns around and says "your spotted by x and he just put you into your overflow with an ares predator"  without him/her ever even picking up a dice the odds are you would be pissed, right?  Spliting the medical costs amongst the group assuming you survive might be nice, but it wouldn't fix the issue.  Same deal for playing a face and having 50-60% of the mooks in an ip repeatedly target you with your holdout pistol over the street sam, mage etc every time combat happens, if it fits events sure, but thats not what we are dealing with here. 

Because if I pass you I wont even leave a breeze.
If you search for me you won't find a trace.
What then do those seeking me say they found?
Nothing.
Zero is nothing.
I am Zero.
What better name for myself?
 -Zero on being asked where he got his name...

GloriousRuse

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« Reply #8 on: <01-22-17/1715:49> »
On the subject of facilities in general, I aspire to (and occasionally fail at) trying to secure them in a reasonable manner reflecting how they would be defended. What would this mean for drones?

1) In a sprawl, people are presumably allowed to own and operate drones. And the airspace itself is going to be coordinated at a higher administrative level than every 50 feet. You can't just go dropping the things because you think they are taking a peak unless they have clearly transgressed on your property and out of City airspace; and presumably have been given a few digital warnings to the ffect of "turn around, don;t be here." Think of the liability and the paperwork! That said, the average corp is going to know that. The average corp also does not have an unlimited budget so, here's a few plausible counters in that environment:

A) Reflective windows. Glass blocks thermals by default (useful bit of knowledge right there as a GM), and giving windows that sunglass mirrorshade look is both aesthetically pleasing and renders standard observation very difficult. Plus, you know, its a lot cheaper than DroneSmacker 5000.

B) Flood the EM or silence it. Either have everything, la di dad di, EVERYTHING, broadcasting in the near EM or have nothing. In the first manner, anyone doing digital snooping is going to be flooded with so many signals that its hard to pick out which is useful and which is a roomba. Sure, you're having packets get sniffed, but every one of them has some encryption on it. Give the NSA a year and maybe they'll find the key stuff y brute force, but otherwise an undirected snoop is playing the lotto to find anything more interesting than the automated coffee refill ordering. For the second, it's obvious - if no EM comes out of a building, hard to listen. The obvious mix would be to silence critical signatures while broadcatsing a ton of lfuff anyhow. 

C) Tagged airspace control; local. Permitted drones all get a tag attached which broadcasts an RFID. Tags are cheap, but anything riding in your airspace without the right tag and emitting an electronic signature is not yours. Now you have legwork in the run - if you want to do drone recon in close, you gotta find bob in drone maintenance and compromise him. (Or whatever)

D) Good matrix hygiene.

I'm sure you can think of more.

2) What do you do with a wayward drone? Well, you probably don't scratch it out of hand. The people who know it is there may give it a warning depending on how legal your area is, but not before sizing it up. Get all the good signature  and identifying data off of it; if you do get in, far better to stay silently in the system and find out who is running it and seeing how far back you can track that than crudely spike the thing. Even that is a lot of effort; just file it, warn the drone, and continue life. Maybe down the line someone realizes the drone with that number was reported stolen from delivery and one of the player's contacts isn't willing to deal with the PC because the cops are prying about why mosquito shipment 1234 went through his hands when ti was clearly reported stolen. Or the automated LE systems just track the NAC/SN whatever back to DroneMart, and find that a certain SIN purchased it - which gets ignore until that SIN pops up again somewhere else, then BOOM, full video, audio, etc from the store becomes the basic "who we're hunting".

Now, if a second drone comes in under the same clear control source, or the first becomes suspicious, that's when the hacking types go to work back tracking the operator. as the sec guy in that case, you don't want the far end runner going "drat, thats 300 yen", you want him going "uh huh, uh huh, looks good, yeah....guys about the second stairwell...hey, is that someone at my do---CRACK! DOWN ON THE FLOOR MOTHERF*CKER! - end signal", or, if you're playing a table where corps are less extralegal, then just know that once the second drone gets compromised, someone is going to spend a few hours counter gathering info: the warrant is ready, and the target package to send someone after the runners is all que'd up, just in case they try something. You do not need to destroy a single piece of equipment as the GM - let the players go through the joys of trying to burn an identity, at least electronically, if the rigger gets his drones found, hacked, and backtraced. Drama for all, and a reasonable and cost effective corporate deterrent.

Needless to say, even if the drone isn't cracked, once the security knows it is there, they know where it is looking. The players might just find that sewage line is no longer as easy to get in from as they thought come game day.

Or if you're in true brutal genius/zero zone mode, security lets drones penetrate into preplanned traps; make security seem hard at one place and soft at another to tempt runners in to places where they can be easily isolated and killed or captured.

3) You're not in a sprawl. You're in Chicago. This is effectively a war zone. Better hope that drone doesn't get compromised, because if it does, the timer is ticking on when a couple missiles from 30k feet up end the runners.