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Suprathyroid Gland and the Improved Reflexes Adept Power

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Namikaze

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« Reply #15 on: <08-29-14/1203:01> »
For what it's worth, I've always interpreted that Initiative is a derived attribute, and that Initiative Dice is something wholly different.  There are no items in the game (that I can recall at the moment anyway) that increase Initiative directly.  Instead, the increases are always to Reaction or Intuition.  The only difference is in providing additional Initiative Dice, which do not stack.  As a result, so long as your Reaction and Intuition bonuses don't go over your augmented maximum, your Initiative can be whatever the hell it wants to be.
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Xenon

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« Reply #16 on: <08-29-14/1348:41> »
There are no items in the game (that I can recall at the moment anyway) that increase Initiative directly...
SR5 p. 288 Increase Reflexes
This spell increases the initiative of a subject. Each hit rolled on the Spellcasting Test adds +1 to the target’s Initiative, and every two hits adds one Initiative Die. A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.

You can for example stack Increase Reflexes, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Jazz and Adrenaline Boost for a really really high Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score. With 4 hits in each spell you are actually looking at an Initiative Score of +12 from Initiative Attribute (plus your regular Initiative Attribute), +4D6 Initiative Dice (plus your regular 1D6 Initiative Dice) plus another +2 Initiative Score per level of Adrenaline Boost.


...so long as your Reaction and Intuition bonuses don't go over your augmented maximum...
Augmentations (cyberware and bioware) cannot exceed the Augmented maximum unless they explicit state so (most don't, but not all). Other enhancements (such as drugs, magic etc.) actually don't have this limit unless they explicit state so (most do, but not all).

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #17 on: <08-29-14/2316:32> »
SR5 p. 288 Increase Reflexes
This spell increases the initiative of a subject. Each hit rolled on the Spellcasting Test adds +1 to the target’s Initiative, and every two hits adds one Initiative Die. A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.

You can for example stack Increase Reflexes, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Jazz and Adrenaline Boost for a really really high Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score. With 4 hits in each spell you are actually looking at an Initiative Score of +12 from Initiative Attribute (plus your regular Initiative Attribute), +4D6 Initiative Dice (plus your regular 1D6 Initiative Dice) plus another +2 Initiative Score per level of Adrenaline Boost.

Augmentations (cyberware and bioware) cannot exceed the Augmented maximum unless they explicit state so (most don't, but not all). Other enhancements (such as drugs, magic etc.) actually don't have this limit unless they explicit state so (most do, but not all).

... wow.  So a decently-skilled adept (some Karma under his belt, Reaction and Intuition both at 6 for a base Initiative of 12, with 6 levels in Adrenaline Boost, for +12 Initiative) with a decently-skilled mage-friend (call it 8 successes with Increase Reflexes, Quickened, for +8 Initiative and +4d6, as well as 4 successes on each Increased Attribute spell for Reaction and Intuition, for another +8) is going to be hitting ... 12 + 12 + 8 + 8 = 40 + 5d6.

I ... had never really looked at this that closely before.  And this, of course, is if that Increased Reflexes spell gets only 8 hits ... and a mage with his own bit of karma under his belt is going to have an Astral Limit of 8+, so 10 or higher is not impossible.  Heck, with his own enhancements ... 14.  Which would add another 6 points, to make it 46 + 5d6, averaging a score of *mumble mumble* 63.5, minimum 51, maximum 76.  And of course, so long as the adept can soak the Drain from Adrenaline Boost every Turn (which amounts to getting six hits on that Body + Willpower test), he can keep that going.

.... cripes.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #18 on: <08-30-14/0354:45> »
SR5 p. 288 Increase Reflexes
This spell increases the initiative of a subject. Each hit rolled on the Spellcasting Test adds +1 to the target’s Initiative, and every two hits adds one Initiative Die. A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell at a time, and the maximum Initiative Dice anyone can have is +5D6.

You can for example stack Increase Reflexes, Increase Reaction, Increase Intuition, Jazz and Adrenaline Boost for a really really high Initiative Attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score. With 4 hits in each spell you are actually looking at an Initiative Score of +12 from Initiative Attribute (plus your regular Initiative Attribute), +4D6 Initiative Dice (plus your regular 1D6 Initiative Dice) plus another +2 Initiative Score per level of Adrenaline Boost.

I can't tell if you were trying to counter my statement or not, Xenon.  Cause it sure seems like you are proving my point that the Improved Reflexes adept power and the Suprathyroid Gland should stack.  Not that anything that you said actually directly relates to the discussion of these two elements, it's just that if all these other things can stack...  why not let the adept power and bioware stack?
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Xenon

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« Reply #19 on: <08-30-14/0444:36> »
Increase Reflexes is an example of an increase that affect Initiative directly (you said there was none). Sorry if this was not clear.

... why not let the adept power and bioware stack?
Because according to the book; the adept power Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative while the spell Increase Reflexes can...
« Last Edit: <08-30-14/0447:01> by Xenon »

Namikaze

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« Reply #20 on: <08-30-14/1308:46> »
Because according to the book; the adept power Improved Reflexes cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative while the spell Increase Reflexes can...

But the Suprathyroid Gland doesn't increase Initiative.  It increases the stats that contribute to Initiative.  After all, Initiative is a derived attribute:

Quote from: SR5, page 159
The Initiative Attribute is a derived attribute used to measure the speed, perceptiveness, and reaction rate of a combatant.

Physical Initiative is derived from Reaction + Intuition.  The Suprathyroid gland doesn't increase Initiative, it increases Reaction.  Since Reaction is used in a wide variety of tests and derived attributes (Initiative being one of them, but the defense pool is another) then yes, it stacks.  All of this assumes, of course, that the character hasn't capped out at his augmented maximum.
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Xenon

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« Reply #21 on: <08-30-14/1636:13> »
Improved reflexes and Glands stack for the purpose of calculating the defense dice pool size.
However, improved reflexes is incompatible with Glands for the purpose of calculating initiative.

SR5 p. 421 Incompatibility
When two items are incompatible ... you cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says it’s incompatible and the other doesn’t, they’re incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.

Namikaze

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« Reply #22 on: <08-31-14/0141:40> »
SR5 p. 421 Incompatibility
When two items are incompatible ... you cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says it’s incompatible and the other doesn’t, they’re incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.

Where does it state that the Suprathyroid Gland is incompatible with augmentations to Reaction?  Or, conversely, where does it state that Improved Reflexes is incompatible with augmentations to Reaction?  Cause that's what we're talking about - not Initiative, not anything else.  Just the Reaction attribute, which can be modified up to the augmented maximum.
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Xenon

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« Reply #23 on: <08-31-14/0344:55> »
Improved Reflexes increase Reaction which also affects Initiative (the power even specifically point this out).
Improved Reflexes also increase Initiative Dice which, depending on your reading, also affects Initiative.

Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical or magical increases to Initiative.

Increase of Reaction is also an increase of Initiative
Increase of Intuition is also an increase of Initiative
Increase of Initiative Attribute is also an increase of Initiative
And, depending on your reading, an increase of Initiative Dice or Initiative Score is also an increase of Initiative.


Suprathyroid Gland increases Reaction which also affect Initiative.




There are three ways to read this.

1) Improved Reflexes is compatible with other technical or magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and compatible with their indirect increase of Initiative Attribute) and is only incompatible with direct increases to the Initiative Attribute (and possible also Initiative Dice and Initiative Score). This is how I interpret that you seem to read it Namikaze.... If you also consider that Improved Reflexes is compatible with increases to Initiative Dice and Initiative Score then it will be compatible with everything except the Increase Reflexes Spell.

2) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) for the purpose of calculating Initiative (but compatible for the purpose of calculating the pilot skill dice pool, defense pool etc). This is how i read it.

3) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction, Intuition and Initiative Attribute (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) since they are all increases of Initiative. This would be an even more strict reading of RAW that might or might not be RAI.
« Last Edit: <08-31-14/0346:52> by Xenon »

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #24 on: <08-31-14/0358:13> »
Sorry, Xenon, I'm going to have to say that 'increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative' - because while enhancing one of or both of those will serve to increase Initiative, they are not in and of themselves direct increases to Initiative.  Going by either #2 or #3, if I gain an enhancement to my Intuition, I can't take Wired Reflexes - because Wired Reflexes are incompatable with other increases to Initiative, are they not?

An ability that "increases Initiative" by a certain number of points is simply going to add its value directly to the result of your Initiative roll. That which adds Initiative dice - what I like to term 'Reflexes' - has notable restrictions, the most clear one of which is that it maxes out at a total of +5d6 for when you roll for your Initiative.

I mean, I understand the argument you're making - but even argument #2 is a clearly incorrect interpretation after any real examination.  Sorry.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #25 on: <08-31-14/0414:37> »
Improved Reflexes increase Reaction which also affects Initiative (the power even specifically point this out).
Improved Reflexes also increase Initiative Dice which, depending on your reading, also affects Initiative.

Initiative is not Reaction.  That's not just an interpretation, that's exactly how the rules are written.  Why would Initiative, an attribute derived from Reaction, be the same as Reaction?  That's just not logical to interpret things that way.  Reaction is not a derived attribute.  It's a baseline attribute.  Other derived attributes (Physical Condition Monitor, Stun Condition Monitor, Limits, etc.) all get the benefit of the increased baseline attribute being used in the derived attribute, in addition to any bonuses that apply directly to the derived attribute.

If you're saying that Initiative encompasses the derived attribute and the dice bonus and all of the baseline attributes used in the calculation of Initiative, you're just not reading and interpreting the information correctly.

There are three ways to read this.

There aren't but for the sake of argument, let's say that there are multiple ways to interpret how Initiative works.

1) Improved Reflexes is compatible with other technical or magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and compatible with their indirect increase of Initiative Attribute) and is only incompatible with direct increases to the Initiative Attribute (and possible also Initiative Dice and Initiative Score). This is how I interpret that you seem to read it Namikaze.... If you also consider that Improved Reflexes is compatible with increases to Initiative Dice and Initiative Score then it will be compatible with everything except the Increase Reflexes Spell.

This is not at all how I interpret this.  It's very simple, really.

Reaction
+ Intuition
-----------------
Initiative

Bonuses to Reaction or Intuition cannot be greater than the augmented maximum.  Bonuses to Initiative do not have any effect on Reaction or Intuition, and are therefore only used for Initiative (not for any linked skills or other tests, like Defense tests).  It's that simple.  Initiative Dice are a whole separate thing, which is pretty well covered.  Your Initiative Dice cannot exceed 5d6, and generally won't get higher than 4d6 except in special circumstances.

2) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction and Intuition (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) for the purpose of calculating Initiative (but compatible for the purpose of calculating the pilot skill dice pool, defense pool etc). This is how i read it.

This would mean that Increase Intuition isn't compatible with Wired Reflexes (as Wyrm stated), Synaptic Boosters, or anything that increases Initiative.  Initiative is NOT the same as Reaction or Intuition.  The fact that there is a whole section stating very clearly that Initiative is a derived attribute clearly indicates that it is separate from Reaction and Intuition.

3) Improved Reflexes is incompatible with other technical and magical increases to Reaction, Intuition and Initiative Attribute (and possible Initiative Dice and Initiative Score) since they are all increases of Initiative. This would be an even more strict reading of RAW that might or might not be RAI.

This is just...  weird.  I don't think anyone would screw up reading so badly that they would even interpret Initiative in this way.

At the end of the day, Xenon, you have your opinion.  Your opinion happens to be completely counter to the book, but that's how you do it.  I'm not going to get my blood pressure up over something as stupid as this argument.  If you feel like continuing, you'll be doing so in a vacuum.  I'm done with this discussion.
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Xenon

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« Reply #26 on: <08-31-14/0915:01> »
Sorry, Xenon, I'm going to have to say that 'increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative'
No need to be sorry. I totally agree.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #27 on: <08-31-14/1007:48> »
Sorry, Xenon, I'm going to have to say that 'increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative'
No need to be sorry. I totally agree.
Actually, that's kind of taken out of context, in part because I didn't complete the thought.  The idea that 'Increasing Reaction/Intuition is an increase to Initiative' is bull, because:
...while enhancing one of or both of those will serve to increase Initiative, they are not in and of themselves direct increases to Initiative.
So I'm totally with Namikaze on this one, as per the rest of my post.
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Xenon

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« Reply #28 on: <08-31-14/1014:56> »
This is not at all how I interpret this. ..
So I'm totally with Namikaze on this one, as per the rest of my post.
Ahh. Ok. My bad.

Just to be clear where you stand on the matter;
Do you guys think that Improved Reflexes is compatible (stack) with Wired Reflexes?


I read it as Improved Reflexes increase Initiative and that Wired Reflexes increase Initiative. You can have both Improved Reflexes and Wired Reflexes at the same time and that Wired Reflexes in its own is compatible with Improved Reflexes (since Improved Reflexes is a magical increase to Initiative and not cyberware or bioware (aka "augmentation")) but that Improved Reflexes is incompatible with Wired Reflexes because Wired Reflexes is a technological increase to Initiative.

If you read that Improved Reflexes is only incompatible with direct increase to Initiative Attribute then it will be compatible with every single increase except Improved Reflexes Spell (as this is the only magical or technological increase that directly affect the Initiative Attribute in the entire book). All other magical or technological increases are indirect to Initiative Attribute through Reaction or Intuition, directly to Initiative Dice and/or directly to Initiative Score.
« Last Edit: <08-31-14/1040:04> by Xenon »

Xenon

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« Reply #29 on: <08-31-14/1020:12> »
...if I gain an enhancement to my Intuition, I can't take Wired Reflexes...
Yes you can.
Incompatible does not mean you can't have both.
It just mean that you can't benefit from both at the same time (they don't stack).

Wired Reflexes is also only incompatible with augmentations (cyberware and bioware) that affect Initiative, but for argument sake say you install an augmentation that give you Intuition (no such augmentation in the book but we use it to illustrate a point).

You can install both. When it comes to your perception dice pool you will benefit by the increase to intuition augmentation. When it comes to your pilot dice pool you will benefit by Wired Reflexes. When it comes to Initiative you will have to choose if you want to benefit from either Wired Reflexes or the augmentation that gave you Intuition. Wired Reflexes is incompatible with other augmentations to Initiative so when it comes to Initiative the two augmentations will not stack.

SR5 p. 421 Incompatibility
When two items are incompatible ... you cannot use the effects of both items at the same time. If one item of gear says it’s incompatible and the other doesn’t, they’re incompatible. You can have both items if you want, you just have to pick what piece of gear to use at what time.
« Last Edit: <08-31-14/1041:53> by Xenon »