Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Kesendeja on (20:09:15/10-09-17)

Title: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Kesendeja on (20:09:15/10-09-17)
During a run, the mage wanted to use Fix to restore a burned document. They also wanted to know if it could repair the damage that time and the elements have done to an item, such as erosion, fading or mildew, and rot. All the spell says is that all of the object must be present, not what condition it has to be in.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: legionof1 on (20:26:17/10-09-17)
Largely it GM's say for objects that don't have an explicit condition track.

The burned document i would allow but all you would get would be a piece of paper at my table. Writing on paper is purposeful damage/alteration of the underlying material. Points for cleverness though.

Wear and tear i would allow, if the majority of discreet original mass is present. No putting the pyramids back together from sand. But a concrete wall that mostly just crumbled. Knock yourself out. Possibly literally, modern concrete siting at  around 9 on the object resistance table
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Reaver on (21:03:11/10-09-17)
Fix is also good at restoring the condition of an item that has seen 'runner's use. Meaning bullet holes.

Just because you got shot and soaked all the damage doesn't mean there isn't a large, bullet shaped hole in jacket and coat... Or your car/drone for that matter...


Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: SunRunner on (08:50:33/10-10-17)
Normally if no damage resulted the round was stopped, so no whole present is my basic understanding. That how ever does not mean paint is not removed and other obvious cosmetic damage is not occurring. Also they dont deal with the real live details of armor degrades as it takes hit. You can find videos online of vehicles with bullet proof glass and armor installed by security companies being shot up. Most of them while keeping the passengers safe have obviously been shot up. Also bullet proof vests degrade rapidly as they stop bullets and repeated strikes especially in the same general area cause problems quickly.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Mirikon on (13:12:20/10-10-17)
Using Fix on a burned piece of paper is tricky, since ashes could get scattered fairly easily. Still, you could restore the paper to its unburnt state, I guess, if they were all there. The information written on it? Not so much, unless you got MAD hits.

As for rust/erosion... well, the damaged parts aren't there any more. That's part of what rust and erosion does. Mildew/mold is alive, so you might 'fix' damage from it, but the mildew and mold would still be there, so you'd still need to rip stuff out and replace.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Senko on (15:17:33/10-10-17)
It's an iffy situation though. Sure a rusted generator is missing parts but isn't that kind of the point of the spell your trying to fix the damage done to it. On the other hand if someone damaged the generator but removing parts your creating something out of nothing in the exact same way. Similarly condition track damage usually indicates something is going missing and it does work on that. On yet another hand (maybe I should go with paws so I have four of them) the heal spell doesn't regenerate lost limbs which is sort of the similar boat.

For simplicities sake and because I dislike spells that are largely useless for the purpose their designed for (you can't fix your car because I cut 1mm of this cable out and took it with me as opposed to just cutting the cable) for objects without a condition track I've always tended towards as long as the majority of the object is intact more than 50 percent of it the spell will restore it to its original condition. Of course as others have said that means you wind up with a nice, clean sheet of paper.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Mirikon on (15:33:22/10-10-17)
That's coming up on one of the hard stops of Shadowrun magic, Senko. Creating something from nothing is a big no.

The Fix spell works really well for some things, such as fixing the bullet holes in your ride, or repairing the damage to that bumper and axle caused by running over that troll. If you, say, clipped cables and took them with you, then it would fix any damage it could, but the device broken by the missing cable would still be nonfunctional.

Remember, magic is powerful, but not omnipotent. And I've always found spells like Fix to be better used in the same way as a medkit or stim patches might be. It keeps your gear going during the run, but doesn't necessarily eliminate the need to get it checked over or have maintenance done when you're through.

'Simple' fixes usually lead to large problems once you start expanding beyond isolated incidents.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Senko on (21:03:43/10-10-17)
Hmm wasn't aware that was a hard stop. Thought they were just raising the dead, time travel and teleporting. More of a soft stop especially with the new loves and fishes spell.

Anyway to be clear my example is more minor missing parts it can fill in up to a point as part of the repairs and that was set at 50% just to avoid the hassle of is this more important or does the person have more knowledge about X. Especially since most things it's important for have condition tracks. It also has to be damage. So as per my example it has to have no condition track and while cutting a bit out of a wire it can fix, removing the wire entirely and properly it can't as nothing's damaged it's just plain missing. Similarly blowing up the car entirely will be too much to repair even if it's technically all there it doesn't have more than 50% intact. If that makes my decision process cleare?

EDIT
There's also a bit of a judgement call on how much of a particular part is missing and whether it counts as part of a larger object or is self contained. For example a computer hard drive these days is more plug and play rather than part of the computer itself and if you cut too big a chunk out of a wire it couldn't fix that either. On the other hand a badly rusted shipping container with lots of small holes and a few large ones in my opinion could be fixed.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: SunRunner on (09:40:52/10-12-17)
I am mostly with Senko. I get what your saying about Magic is not allowed to created something from nothing, but almost all damage involves removing pieces of what ever was damaged. Bullets making wholes in stuff involves there being less stuff then you started with as a portion of it will basically be removed by the bullet, same for being cut with a sword or bashed with a hammer past a certain point. So if you apply the interpretation too literally spells like fix are largely worthless as they wont be able to fix anything 90+% of the time.

Ultimately its a judgement call by the GM, if most of what you started with is there 50% or more I would probably allow restoration but deliberate damage like writing on paper would be lost. I would also go with the hard drive example where things that are discreet parts could play havoc with complex devices like computers and vehicles. I would let the spell repair wire cuts and such and I would not let the spell be stopped by some one just taking a small clipping of the wire. Removing whole discrete parts like pulling out a spark plug or removing an entire wire harness section would stop the spell in my opinion, or at least the spell would fix everything that is fixable but tis not making a new spark plug outta thing air for example.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Senko on (13:09:18/10-12-17)
Pretty much where I'm coming from and as I said I dislike spells that are meant to do something but can't. Sure there is damage that doesn't involve loss like tearing a piece of paper in half but most of it your going to see some lost pieces even if its only on a small scale and if you rule that makes the spell fail I think its going to be a lot less fun for the person playing a mage. Recreating a spark plug or wire harness section that's been removed on the other hand is (a) not damage, (b) a discreet part and (c) missing entirely so I agree completely with SunRunner that there it would fail as that's not what the spell does. That's not damage that's the complete removal of a seperate piece designed to be swapped out.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: SunRunner on (14:13:06/10-12-17)
To clarify I did say it would fix what it could fix, to give an example some guy shoots out your tires and then pops your hood and steals your alternator cap. Fix wold fix the tires but not create a new alternator cap. So some damage would be repaired but the part that was completely removed would not be fixed. Alternatively using the same example except the guy just cuts some of your Alternator cap hook ups would result in Fix fully repairing the vehicle so it would start and run assuming enough hits were generated.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Senko on (15:53:38/10-12-17)
Both examples I agree with.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Jareth Valar on (01:16:21/10-17-17)
OK chummers, what about an archanoarchaeoligist coming across dry and brittle papyrus (or other material) scrolls. Could fix...fix that?  What about the scene from the Stargate movie where Daniel finds the tablet with the 7th symbol broken off and faded away?

Just some more out there hypothetical situations for you (I tend to think outside geometric shapes...more tesseract, less box. :-P)
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: legionof1 on (02:30:57/10-17-17)
I would be inclined to allow both examples. Something that has been sealed/buried in some fashion probably has most of its substance physically present, just not in the original form/shape.

However it would depend on the quality of the sealing/burial. Something buried in the dirt without protection will lose substance to insects, earth movement, water, etc. Something in a tomb or container intended for preservation would not.   
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: SunRunner on (08:33:23/10-17-17)
It would have limited archaeological applications. Papyrus scrolls would be fixed so you have a nice fresh sheet of Papyrus that happens to be blank, assuming enough hits were rolled as I would probably increase the difficulty due to age. Now engraved stone tablets or metal plaques would get fixed right up with enough hits, same for hieroglyphic carvings on a wall.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Spooky on (14:13:45/10-17-17)
But the engraving is "damage", just like ink on a page is "damage". A metal plaque with raised letters, however, was made in that shape, and thus would restore to that.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Senko on (14:20:19/10-17-17)
I had to give this one some thought and I  find that in the end I'd allow both examples of fix mainly because if you do start going with it restores deliberate damage you start opening a big can of worms. Why does it remove the writing from papyrus scrolls as deliberate damage but not the carvings from the tablet that is much more obvious deliberate damage. How about paint on a broken bookshelf or a ruin wall. What if you cast it on an elaborately carved pillar that's cracked do you remove the carving? For the metal plaque what if rather than being cast in that shape it was stamped, clothing that's been dyed a particular colour/patter, computer chips which I believe are etched, even a door which starts off as one panel then has a hole cut for the handle/lock?

If you start saying it fixes deliberate use as damage you run into a lot of problems and come back to making the spell largely useless for its intended purpose. I'd treat the object as being restored to their intended state as it were. So an unused diary is restored to new condition and a used diary doesn't lose the writing in it. It exists as a used diary thus when you cast fix on it to restore the water damage you don't remove that filled out part. However after thinking about this I think I'd require more hits to restore something that was missing parts of itself as opposed to one that is just in poor condition. That is you need more hits to restore a burnt piece of paper than you do one in good condition and maybe more still for a burnt piece of paper with writing on it as opposed to one that's blank although I'm still thinking about that.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Kiirnodel on (14:28:22/10-17-17)
If the Heal spell doesn't remove tattoos, then the Fix spell wouldn't remove stains/inks.

If the material removed to form the engraving isn't present, the Fix spell can't fix it.

None of these things are considered damage to the object in the first place (structurally speaking). And they wouldn't be recorded as damage on a condition monitor for the object.


If a piece of a page is missing, or has been burned away/shot or anything like that, the Fix spell would repair the damage. But magic isn't smart, it couldn't know how the writing is supposed to be, so it either wouldn't be restored or would come back jumbled (depending on how it was damaged).
If you tear up a paper, you can use the Fix spell to make it whole again, but I would say you probably need to puzzle it back together in the right order first (otherwise it would come back as an abstract piece of artwork).


"Damage" from age or chemical changes in the object are debatable, so it would depend on the GM (and likely the individual situation). If something has become old and "brittle" I would say there is nothing that needs fixing (yet). A reinforce spell would be more appropriate in that sort of situation. On the other hand, if a metal device has started to rust through, I could see that as damage in need of repair...
It's all very subjective.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Reaver on (14:32:45/10-17-17)
 Isn't me unloading a gun into your engine block deliberate damage?

This is the problem. When start trying to add words or imply meanings to things... Everything can be twisted a bit to fit your ideal standard.

Not every spell has a great use all the time. In fact, many spells have a singular or very specific usage. (Doesn't stop people from trying things that spells were never intended for.).


Play carefully with wording and intent...
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Senko on (14:37:39/10-17-17)
As reaver said if you start saying the spell can fix damage but not deliberate damage you run into huge problems and not just with things like shooting holes in something a lot of objects even today require "deliberate" damage to work much less to be aesthetically appealing. Lets take a painting is the paint used to make it going to be fixed when you cast the spell on it after a leak causes it to get water damaged, what if its cut or part of its burnt away? When does that painting become just a blank canvas again if your saying that the spell fixes deliberate damage? Or take the car shooting lets say it was a go ganger who's art form is to express things with bullet holes? That is they don't just shoot holes in the car but shoot in a specific pattern? Spray painting  your house is that deliberate damage and if not why would the spell remove the graffiti but not the original coat of paint you put on? If it doesn't remove the graffiti why would it remove writing from a piece of paper?

EDIT
What if for the sake of argument you set the house on fire then put it out to get rid of the graffiti. Is that deliberate damage so it can't be undone, does it restore the house with unpainted wood, wood painted the colour it was when you bought the house, wood painted the colour you used because you hated the original one or wood with the graffiti intact?
For me it'd restore with the graffiti as the houses intended state is to be a painted house but it can't distinguish between your deliberate painting of it as yellow or the deliberate patterns of the graffiti.
Same with anything else it'll restore rust, water damage, fire damage, cutting but if someone paints a beard and moustache on the Mona Lisa it won't help because it can't distinguish between the original painting and the vandalism.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Reaver on (15:09:14/10-17-17)
This is what the book has to say on the spell (since no one linked it yet)

Quote
FIX
(PHYSICAL)
Type: P Range: T
Duration: P Drain: F
Most spellcasters have devoted their efforts towards
learning spells rather than mechanics. This can leave
a magician in a bad situation when there is a need for
an emergency repair during a run. Fix allows the spellcaster
to repair damage to non-living materials, including
drones and vehicles. The caster must first touch the
object and then achieve enough hits to beat the itemís
Object Resistance threshold (p. 295, SR5).

Fix can repair any item with a weight equal to the
Force x the spellcasterís hits in kilograms or less. This
spell can only repair broken items when all the pieces
are present. The weight limit applies to the damaged
part, not necessarily the entire vehicle. For example, if
you have a busted wheel, you would count that weight
not the weight of the entire vehicle
. Each hit scored repairs
1 point of Structure rating or 1 box of damage. An
object may only be affected by Fix once and thereafter
may not be repaired again by this spell.


SO, someone shoots out your tire, Fix will repair that with any net hits over the O.R of the tire ( a highly processed item, consisting of Processed rubber from hydrocarbons, Aluminum/copper cabling).

Someone makes off with your alternator Cap, you're screwed.

Your biggest limitations on this spell are the Object resistance of the item in question, and thus the weight of the object (as to gain hits you have to beat the O.R of the item).


So lets look at the Object resistance table (295)

Quote
INITIATIVE TYPE dice pool
Natural Objects                                                                                                                       3
Trees, soil, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, metal cold-worked by hand)

Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials                                                                     6
Brick, leather, simple plastics

Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials                                                                    9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors

Highly Processed Objects                                                                                                     15+
Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles


So to fix that flat tire, you are up against 9 dice (Manufactured high-tech object and material). Any hits after the resistance test are counted towards the weight of the object... And since a tire can weigh in between 6 and 15 kilos (https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/how-much-does-a-tyre-weigh)... means you need 1 to 3 successes to restore 1 to 3 boxes of damage..... so not really a pristine fix up.  (assuming 6 magic, no overcasting, no reagents)

Fixing that drone is even harder.... and probably gets it back to "barely operable" condition... (as 1 hit restores 1 bot of damage.... provided you have the hits to match the weight.) 


Would it fix a book when a page has been shredded? if you had the bits and pieces, I would say "yes" and it would be readable. The object you are fixing is a "Book" not a single page of processed pulp product.
Same with an old clay tablet. It's a not a block of mud... its an instruction manual, or textbook, or whatever the intended purpose of the tablet was.

BUT, do keep in mind that Object resistance table and really think about what you are fixing...

A book isn't just a natural product because its made from wood pulp. That wood pulp has been treated by 60 different chemicals, run through 30 different machines, been combined with other materials, and then been mechanically printed on, cut, folded, had more chemicals applied to it, and finally shipped to you... all with minimal human contact... which makes it the very definition of "Highly processed".....

So books very well could be on par with fixing a drone... At that level of effort, you BETTER get the words! (and again, why wouldn't you, you are fixing a BOOK. not a page.)
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Mirikon on (17:06:18/10-17-17)
Since the text says Object Resistance Threshold, that doesn't make it an opposed test, but a threshold test. Meaning you would need 10 hits to fix 1 point of damage on a broken sensor system. And you'd need 7 hits to restore one point of damage to a tire. Fixing an entire drone or vehicle would need at least 16 hits. Fixing a tire would need a pool of 21+ to have an average chance of fixing at least one point of damage, unless you're spending edge and getting lucky. Meanwhile, a spare takes a couple minutes to switch out and costs 200 nuyen.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Kiirnodel on (17:25:11/10-17-17)
Since the text says Object Resistance Threshold, that doesn't make it an opposed test, but a threshold test. Meaning you would need 10 hits to fix 1 point of damage on a broken sensor system. And you'd need 7 hits to restore one point of damage to a tire. Fixing an entire drone or vehicle would need at least 16 hits. Fixing a tire would need a pool of 21+ to have an average chance of fixing at least one point of damage, unless you're spending edge and getting lucky. Meanwhile, a spare takes a couple minutes to switch out and costs 200 nuyen.

If you want to be that exacting on it, then you can't use that chart. The chart lists Object Resistance Dice Pools, not Thresholds. It's obviously a copy-paste misprint when they decided to change from OR being a threshold to a dice pool.
Title: Re: What exactly can fix, fix
Post by: Senko on (19:17:27/10-17-17)
You could also screw your players over by simply saying not all of the tire is present hence the bullet hole and thus you can't use the spell to repair it. Why I had my house rule about only needing 51% of the object something I just realised I hadn't made clear when reading the linked spell.