[Reaver]

I think you'll find that even the Corp Script is a digital currency. After all, printing, and maintaining a physical supply in the correct amounts is an extra cost that Corps that are authorized to have Script can avoid by just keeping it digital. Of course there is still paper money in some parts of the world - but its not likely you will being visiting those parts often.

And Marcus is correct. These things do happen and they are done by those with the skills to do so. Maintained by those that have a vested interest in keeping them running (Namely the shadow organizations that control the black and grey markets).

I make a really good living with the work I do, But my knowledge is limited on how to grow my investments - So I have hired an investment firm to handle that part of my life. The same holds true for Runners.

IF a Runner is looking to grow his money out from just squatting in an empty flat, his is probably going to be dealing with some known Grey or Black market investor.

Shadowrun doesn't cover a lot of things. It doesn't cover if you are suffering from Sleep deprivation because of loud moaners next door doing the Horizontal Tango all night. It doesn't cover if you are suffering malnutrition cause you only eat Soy-Chili-Dogs for every meal. It doesn't cover is you are suffering from the common cold on a run... Heck it doesn't track when you have to "do your business" every day either
Mostly because these minor details take away from the game. No one wants to be rolling dice to see if their visit to the bank teller takes 10 minutes or 30 minutes. Mostly because those are rather boring details...even if they may be part of a Characters daily life.

But like I said above, if your group does find these types of things interesting, the roll with them! It's your game, your table, do whatever your table finds is fun!

[Mollari]

Hi all

Thanks for clarifying corp script. I had that wrong.

Thanks for all of you're comments. You've helped bring to light shadow banks and helped me researching a bunch into the different authentication levels of SINs and what transactions are put on then/when.

My runners are currently in a very specific situation centered around identity. They add being hunted and al these details are important for this time and they will drop off the normal games once their set up is back, but it'll be fun for a few runs to have them really consider how to operate under these conditions.

So trees being lost for the forest and all is great, but I'm asking these questions not because they aren't relevant but because they are.

If there's any examples in your games of how you've handled shadowrunners getting introductions to a shadowbank, or being ripped off by one, or what their experiences of having their SIN burned, please let me know.

Or better, if you have any great ideas of how you'd get yourself out of a country (dealing with high level SIN requirements for commercial travel) when you haven't a SIN to stand on and you're hunted by the largest gang in towns and everything you own is now illegal... They do have a bunch of information on blackmail targets.

Sometimes shadowrun is just about surviving untill the drek has stopped hitting the fans. And there are indeed fatigue rules, and sleep regulators to moderate things like exhaustion... But I'm not that mean.

[brasso]

Yeah, as most folks have commented, identity and cash tends to get glossed over in most games, and that's great so long as the plot doesn't care. Sounds like yours does...

Not sure about their cash, but if they're on the run, then credsticks all the way - they don't need a SIN at all, they're like bitcoins you can carry around with you. Not many shadowrunners would bother with accounts, as that just makes your transactions traceable. Maybe for rent?

If they're being hunted and trying to leave the country, being tracked by their SIN is the least of their problems (probably by police? I don't think gangs would have much access to the various databases).

Tracking people down in the 6th world is a doozy. Just summon a spirit and get it to use the Search power. If the hunters know their astral signature, they can be tracked that way, which is just as quick. If they have a physical sample (eg. hair), then they can be tracked magically also.

Matrix is another way - if any of their comm numbers are known, then a half-decent decker can track them in 3-6 seconds anywhere in the world.

To get out of the country, they need to find a smuggler who has a container truck, which is protected magically and has corporate extra-territoriality, so that it can't be searched at a check point. Then they just need to switch everything to wireless off (which should have been done ages ago), and he can drive them through to the Salishe-Shide.

Good luck!

[Mollari]

Yeah I agree. There are a ton of stuff we gloss over or ignore in the game for simplicity sake (ie. Background counts unless you're going somewhere really evil). The gang we're talking about is actually an international, and politically connected entity so they are def a threat.

Luckily we play with relatively low levels of magical activity. Thankfully no biological samples are available for ritual magic (though on that note I'm of the opinion that if someone changes their personality sufficiently enough since the time of the biological sample being taken then your aura will have changed).

What this group does have is deckers in spades! They're all over burner coms, virtual machines, hacking cameras and covering any matrix trails.

Love your idea of mailing yourself home in a shipping container though ill make it an option to the group. Boy will they hate each other after a month in a container

[Reaver]

Ok, then you have a few things to consider.

Who is tracking them?
This is important to know as it defines the limitations of their ability to search and apprehend someone. If it is an official source such as a government, or AA+ Corporation, then the limits of the search end at the boarders of that Organization. Ares can't go into Seattle after someone who has stolen something, because Ares boarders end at the side walk. (At least officially). The UCAS can't chase the runners into the CAS, as that is an other country; And so are Mega-corps! So no chasing runners into the Aztech Pyramid Shopping Complex.
If it is a criminal organization, well then their boarders end where their influence ends. The Vory are not chasing the Runners deep into Yakuza zones, and so on.

It's because of these boarders and boundaries that Runners exist. They are the deniable assets that are used in these situations, simply because they are not tied to a organization or government - thus no political fallout. (Or, declarations of war!). But that is also their weakness. If something goes South, they are left twisting in the wind.. or at the end of a rope (literally and metaphorically).

Why are they being tracked?
Most Corporations are not going to spend a butt load of money tracking down a runner team for a stolen piece of tech beyond, say, 72 to 96 hours. Simply because the Runners probably have handed it off to their employers by that time, which means they are wasting money AND possible legal retributions just to recover nothing. Of course, if the Runners do something stupid - say kill 300 people during a run, then it may be a point of pride that causes them to be hunted...

Leaving a city or country really isn't that hard... The hard part is when you do get in! Honestly, to end out of the city, you put one foot in front of the other until the city is at your back. Done. There is no huge wall that surrounds the cites (generally).. Nor are there a Wall that separates countries (Unless Trump figures out a way to pay for his wall and build it... Then there will be one). The trick is what happens when you arrive in the new country. As an illegal alien, you basically have NO rights in Shadowrun. For all intents and purposes, you are a non-entity, which means you are (again) a member of the SINless masses scratching a living out of nothing.

Leaving a country and/or a City for a Runner is a big deal! Generally speaking, the Runners contacts are all situated where they work and live, and not outside that zone of influence. Which means they need to reach out to others in that city to help them get situated and make introductions. This is part of the job of a Fixer. Fixers are people with a wide range of contacts, it's their job to "know someone, who knows someone, who knows someone who has that thing for sale where you are going" and to get you in touch with them (For a fee, of course).
From there, a Runner basically has to start all over again. They have to build up their contacts, and acquire a Rep as a good operative. (which means working your way up of the local list of talent, starting with the low paying, high risk shit jobs the locals don't want!) 

Of course, there is always the Boarder patrols to make the attempts harder.. and they are not a friendly as they are now. Its not a catch and release on the "correct" side as say it is between Mexico and Texas.. Its more of a "shoot it up and deposit the bloody remains on the other side" thing... So hiring a Coyote (someone who specializes in moving people) is a good option.



As for a "Burned" SIN... Well this can happen many ways. The chief way is that it fails a background check, once it gets flagged at a possible fake, its done for. How this happens and when, is basically down to luck, quality and timing. For the most daily stuff a person does, a low level SIN will work. The Buses just want to know you have a SIN, same with the Soykafe Shoppe.. they don't really care who they are selling to, only that you can pay. Going into areas that only "Real, Important" people should be in (like the Business sector, or the Luxury Home Sector) may scan your SIN a little more carefully to make sure you are the "right" kind of person to come in. And finally, there is are times that it is really important to make sure you are who you say you are... like when getting arrested for a serious crime. Or entering a Country, or that Secure Corp Facility...
This is where your quality of SIN matters... the higher the quality of the SIN, the better the details match you.... But that doesn't mean you will always gain entry "just because". After all, even if my very REAL SIN says I am a Citizen of the UCAS, it doesn't mean I have the right to enter an Ares restricted complex. (But if my FAKE SIN says I am a Ares Employee... I just might get in - IF it passes the check!). (The CRB has the rules of SINs and checks)

Having a SIN burned, means you throw it away, and every thing that is attached to it, as it has effectively been "frozen" anyway. For this reason alone, many Runners "run" with several SINS. For example look at my main character:
He has a rating 6 SIN that he "lives" under. This contains his home address, his permit for his heavy pistol, his permit to operate a vehicle, and his permit for magic, and that's about it. After all, a Professor of Mystical Theory doesn't need much more then that. Now, since he has used that SIN for a while it has a whole bunch of background data on it (like where he shops, what he eats, and so on) and that's fine, it just adds to the SIN. And it basically allows him to "live" the life of a wageslave... and never gets used for or around anything that even smells illegal. (lets call this one "Bob")

Then he has a Rating 5 SIN that is used for when he has to move about in the City. This one is linked to more equipment that gets used in more "passive-aggressive"  situations, and is tied to a cover identity for that purpose (in this case a mystical private investigator) so it allows me to use more specialized tools of the trade without drawing too much attention (this one is called "Fred")

Then I have a Rating 3 SIN. (we shall call "Doug") This gets used when I have to purchase something that I don't want linked to either "Bob" or "Fred", and includes things like weapons, ammo, extra drones, and toys, specialized clothing, ETC....

Since all these SINs are different, and do not connect to each other, they can be burned individually, but not as a group. Meaning that if "Doug" gets burned because the Rating 3 SIN fails in a check VS a rating 4 checker, then ONLY "Doug" is burned.... And the "real" Doug (if there IS a deal Doug!) is getting a visit from the police! (If I am not arrested on the spot!)

Since I only accept Certified Cred for payments from Runs, I can keep my money separate from all 3 identities, and transfer what each SIN needs from Certified Cred as needed, when needed. (Remember Certified Cred is NOT linked to SIN, but stands separate from them all. It is the $20 bill in your pocket.... If you drop it on the ground and someone picks it up, they too can spend it... unlike say your Bank card while is protected by a PIN)
If I have  to accept a SIN transfer of funds. (Say "Bob" did something and got a reward and the money was given to "Bob") I just transfer the cash into Certified Cred at a banking institution.

It should be noted that, sometimes Runners buy or get things that can NEVER be explained away. These are items that have an Availability rating of (F). Sure I can get a permit for my heavy pistol, but I can never EVER get a permit for my APDS ammo I have loaded into the pistol! Nor for that piece of (F) rated Cyberware! Those are items that are strictly, legally speaking, for the Government's use and ownership. (Government being a loose term here, as Ares is the Government for Ares property).  So chances are, they never had permits for half their shit anyways 

Does that help you out some? 

 

[Mollari]

Yeah man. That helps a heap and I see you've really thought about this. I was avoiding giving details, but here we go (if you're in my group don't read).

Where: They are in Vladivostok

Who's chasing them:
1) A single A corp that has lost one of the runners as a black budget asset. She worked on a bunch of things for them, so depending on how careful they were in keeping details and context of her work from her, then they may desperately want her back.
2) The Vory (Russian Mafia). After being framed for a bunch of murders, not participating in clearing their names, kidnapping the Vory leader's son, and two of his secretaries... and beating up a bunch of his men... and punching through walls in his main compound after being invited in as guests... yeah they want the group

Why the SINs are burned:
1) A AAA corp has gained a list of a bunch of their SINs and gave them an ultimatum. They didn't play ball so the corp burned the SINs for reasons I'll not go into for brevity's sake. The AAA corp isn't really after them anymore as they got what they wanted in the end.

Their current challenges:
1) They have a ton of assets that are now registered to burned SINs. They need a Fixer to give them new registration numbers to use (if they want to re-register them) but that get's into point 2
2) They 1 Evo low level contact with low loyalty, and they burned their Vory contact. They're hunted, all the Vory owned/protected operations have a watch on them
3) Some have been left with no SIN and no way to get back to Hong Kong (our home, Vladivostok was just a holiday of sorts)

To your point of:

"Since I only accept Certified Cred for payments from Runs...... I just transfer the cash into Certified Cred at a banking institution."

If your SINs only direct income source is constantly through certified credit chips, then that's like being paid in cash in today's economy. Doesn't your Professor of Mystical Theory have a day job, or does the university pay him in cash?

[Reaver]

If your SINs only direct income source is constantly through certified credit chips, then that's like being paid in cash in today's economy. Doesn't your Professor of Mystical Theory have a day job, or does the university pay him in cash?

While we like to think that the government is  "all knowing", it really isn't
What I mean by this is, at the end of the day, to the government, you are, sadly, just a number in a computer. And not even a very smart computer  at that. The governments of SR are so over stretched, and under funded, that they have a very hard time doing anything with any skill. Think about it, they have lost over half of their revenue by hook or by crook. Corporations of AA and bigger are now considered legal countries in and of themselves. And as countries of their own, they do not pay taxes to the government. The citizens that work at these companies, and are lucky enough to become Corp Citizens (because not every Corp employee is a citizen) also do not pay taxes to the country Government.

So, Governments lose out on the big revenue tax streams that usually come from business, and have to rely on smaller business and "Mom & Pop" shops for their tax revenue. Personal income tax is still a thing, but all the "big tax payers" are also Corporate Citizens (Generally speaking) , so they are gone from the tax pool. This leaves a smaller pool of money for everything from infrastructure to law enforcement, to social programs. Basically take everything you get today from your government and toss it out the window. Goodbye healthcare, education, welfare, employment insurance, old age pension, and everything else. If you want a modern comparison, look to Greece, and their financial troubles of the last 10 years or so...

The Government really isn't coming looking for me, because they really don't know that I exist.... Remember, all the info about me contained in the SIN is still FAKE... a really good fake, but still fake. Now there may be a host of records that say where I have lived, where I have worked, what I made in capital, and what I paid in taxes, but all those entries are also fake... And because they are fake there is always a chance that the fake ID will be discovered during a search. (admittedly at a Rating 6 SIN, this is very unlikely, but still possible)... And even today Governments make mistakes all the time!

Heck, in my very own home town, a man has been pronounced "dead" by the government twice in the same year! In fact, within weeks of each other! The government mixed up his Social Security number with that of his mother (who did pass away). And then sent his wife a letter of condolences and a reminder she was eligible for a Spouse Survival tax credit. They just got that mess cleared up by going through our MP, when a month later they sent his wife a letter saying how sorry they were to hear that her husband had passed on and wanted to remind her of the Widow's Fund in case the funeral costs were too high 

On the off chance that I do  come to the government's attention, well then that SIN is burned as well and I am boned... but that is the nature of being a criminal isn't it The system isn't set up to make my life easy, its set up to make the lives of honest people VERY frustrated.

There is some hope however, as I can always have my belongings transferred to a new SIN through a transfer of ownership hack. (again see the CRB for details)... and while it is not really worth it for your average stolen piece of tech, it is helpful for those really nice items that you don't want to lose to a burned SIN. 

****

On the other side of the coin, it could also be handwaved that included in the cost of such an expensive Fake SIN, that the shadow organization I got it from also keeps my data updated with all the needed little bits of data - like income tax payments, payroll deposits, and what not... Or that could be a function of the Shadow banks I use to house any currencies that I need laundered (hard to spend that Aztech Script when you are wanted by the Aztlan government.... but if I deposit it in my showdown account, and take it out as UCAS credits, then deposit the UCAS Credits and take it out again as Nuyen.....)

And this doesn't even touch on the extra territoriality laws and information requests! Meaning, If my SIN says I am a UCAS citizen, but I bank with Renraku World Financial (a MegaCorp subsidiary), then my records are beyond the reach of the UCAS government without a LOT of legal hoop jumping by the UCAS government! In effect, they have no idea if I have paid taxes or not, and can not check my account to see if I have.... And Renraku doesn't care one way of the other. They have my capital to use to fund their schemes and make them richer (which is what happens when you bank with any financial institution. Your money isn't sitting in a vault somewhere, they take it, and reinvest it in something they think will make them money, like small business loans, or a house mortgage for your neighbour, all of which makes them more in interest then they give to me in interest... and if the business folds or the neighbour doesn't pay, they take the business or the house and sell it off themselves. Win-win-win.)

Remember nothing is cut and dry. Everything in shadowrun is buried deep, obfuscated by laws and territories, hidden by shadows and kept running by greed, duct-tape and sheer survival. Its all just 0s and 1s in a computer... and computers are infallible, right?

[Mollari]

AAAAHHHH!!!! There's something that's really spun this around.

Larger corps are their own countries, and their monitoring and efficacy in tax regulation and enforcement isn't answerable to any individual government but the Corporate Court... which they own... so the watchers policing themselves!
Gotcha! This clears up a bunch of issues I've been having.

1) Tax to a government isn't an issue for the Government because you're either working for a Corp and out of their jurisdiction, working for the government directly, or are one of the many unwashed masses they don't give a rat's ass about
- this doesn't stop an audit on you're accounts from bringing up the same information. I agree with you that you are extremely unlikely to be caught through normal means, but these guys are being watched under a microscope
- Dam, Corps probably are all too happy for you to have a fake SIN as their employee. They'll reduce their taxable income if they're paying more employees. LOL this is likely where their black budgets come from, payroll discrepancies.

2) I don't mind the finances being handwaved as a function of the SIN (as the provider has an invested interest in the identity not being discovered (and that is actually the crux of what happened to these runners)), but by that logic, a high level SIN of a high net worth individual will then need that money being shuttled through the SIN by the Shadow Bank at any one time, likely as another of their own laundering activities. What do you think is a reasonable Nuyen loss for having a high roller identity be burned?

3) On your point (and I'm thankful you're helping me work this out) of changing ownership. Could you point me to the relevant references? I believe it's a simple enough edit file and hardware test to change the registrations on a drone/asset etc. My issue comes from "What are you changing the registration to?" Just because I may know how to print a believable looking car numberplate (I don't), desn't mean I know what to change it to that will also correlate with a believable registration etc.
My position is that you need a fixer to provide this information. If you want to put a new serial number on your fav weapon's barrel a fixer will give you the numbers on a bunch of the same weapon they planned to scrub off and leave blank. Re-registring a vehicle, perhaps a fixer knows of the same make of car that's been destroyed but not reported as such/processed through a scrapper.

Is there anything in the books that details how a runner would know what to change the broadcasted and physical identifiers of items to?

[Sphinx]

1) Tax to a government isn't an issue for the Government because you're either working for a Corp and out of their jurisdiction, working for the government directly, or are one of the many unwashed masses they don't give a rat's ass about ...

Only AA and AAA megacorporations have extraterritoriality. There are plenty of local, national, and multinational businesses without extraterritorial status left over to pay taxes to governments, and even megacorporate employees get hit with sales taxes and property taxes when they stray outside megacorp gates.

2) I don't mind the finances being handwaved as a function of the SIN (as the provider has an invested interest in the identity not being discovered (and that is actually the crux of what happened to these runners)), but by that logic, a high level SIN of a high net worth individual will then need that money being shuttled through the SIN by the Shadow Bank at any one time, likely as another of their own laundering activities. What do you think is a reasonable Nuyen loss for having a high roller identity be burned?

If you want to add a nuyen penalty for burning a SIN, consider double the monthly cost (e.g., landlords often ask for a deposit equal to "first and last months' rent"). Alternately, make it equal one month for every consecutive year they've had the SIN, to represent the little comforts and luxuries that accumulate over time. Note, there shouldn't be any penalty for shutting down a SIN and starting a new one on their own timetable (plenty of time to liquidate, launder, and move assets), only when they have to burn an identity in a hurry.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

My favorite example for explaining the use of fake SINs is the movie GATTACA.  The lifestyle the protagonist leads is the sort of lifestyle a SINless person leads when trying to fit in to legal life in Shadowrun.

And remember even when your high rating fake SIN includes biometric data like DNA for verification against high-end systems, it's not necessarily YOUR DNA/Fingerprints/Retinal Pattern.  You're still responsible for performing the tricks you see in GATTACA to get the fake SIN's biometrics in place of your own into the system for verification.  If your high rating fake SIN got burned, among your many other problems is a fridge full of someone else's hair and body fluids that you probably no longer have use of

[Ghost Rigger]

And remember even when your high rating fake SIN includes biometric data like DNA for verification against high-end systems, it's not necessarily YOUR DNA/Fingerprints/Retinal Pattern.  You're still responsible for performing the tricks you see in GATTACA to get the fake SIN's biometrics in place of your own into the system for verification.  If your high rating fake SIN got burned, among your many other problems is a fridge full of someone else's hair and body fluids that you probably no longer have use of

And that's why having a real SIN is surprisingly convenient at times. Use it to buy your groceries, cross borders, and everything else that lets the authorities know your habits and whereabouts, then use your fake SIN to....uh, what do we use fake SINs for again? I do my best to buy illegal stuff with credsticks and I don't run cons, so it's not entirely clear to me what I want to use my fake SIN for.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

And remember even when your high rating fake SIN includes biometric data like DNA for verification against high-end systems, it's not necessarily YOUR DNA/Fingerprints/Retinal Pattern.  You're still responsible for performing the tricks you see in GATTACA to get the fake SIN's biometrics in place of your own into the system for verification.  If your high rating fake SIN got burned, among your many other problems is a fridge full of someone else's hair and body fluids that you probably no longer have use of

And that's why having a real SIN is surprisingly convenient at times. Use it to buy your groceries, cross borders, and everything else that lets the authorities know your habits and whereabouts, then use your fake SIN to....uh, what do we use fake SINs for again? I do my best to buy illegal stuff with credsticks and I don't run cons, so it's not entirely clear to me what I want to use my fake SIN for.

Lifestyle.

Use fake SINs for your Lifestyle.  Especially for your secondary/tertiary lifestyles you maintain as safe houses.

If you've got a real SIN you absolutely don't want to use a real SIN on your lease or rental agreement... that's how Lone Star knows where to pick you up after you leave an inevitable skin flake or fingerpint behind at a crime scene.  Real SINs are drawbacks for a reason, even tho as you point out sometimes they are indeed useful

[Ghost Rigger]

Are groceries not part of one's lifestyle? And are there not dwellings so rubbish that you don't need to use a SIN check to rent them?

Ah, but that's a digression. So, the Fake SIN is there to put a barrier between you and any forscenic evidence you leave behind? I thought it had more to do with the "you must always broadcast a SIN" aspect of the setting.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Are groceries not part of one's lifestyle? And are there not dwellings so rubbish that you don't need to use a SIN check to rent them?

Ah, but that's a digression. So, the Fake SIN is there to put a barrier between you and any forscenic evidence you leave behind? I thought it had more to do with the "you must always broadcast a SIN" aspect of the setting.

Yeah "what's in a lifestyle" is kind of a tangent... and it's also arguable as to whether or not you even NEED a SIN, fake or otherwise, to have a lifestyle.  Obviously in the street and squatter level, there's no leases or bank loans tied to an identity.  Even all the way up to luxury, arguably you could say bribes are covering banks/landlords' needs to cover their butts with official paperwork.  As a player you'll need to know from the GM how his stance is.  Of course when I'm GMing I feel a drawback has to actually negatively impact you to offset the free karma you got for taking it, so I require lifestyles to be linked to a SIN (fake or otherwise) in order to add some real threat of pain should the SIN get burned or if a run goes sideways and Lone Star literally knows where you live...

Going back specifically to SINs... yeah a primary use is to not look suspicious by not broadcasting a SIN.  Criminal SINs are something you want to avoid broadcasting in any kind of upstanding company, and Corp SINs are something you want to avoid broadcasting in any kind of Shadow company.  That's before not wanting to make it easy to link your actual identity to any Shadowruns you're perpetrating by broadcasting a legit SIN while trading gunfire with security/the cops...

[Ghost Rigger]

That comes down to a catch-22, doesn't it? If you rent your place with your real SIN, then Knight Errant or Lone Star or whoever law enforcement is contracted to in the area is going to know where you live if they get any forensic evidence. If you rent it using a fake SIN, then they'll know where you live when they catching you broadcasting it during a firefight, or are we supposed to turn it off shortly before a firefight? It's been a while since I played and I forgot how the rhythm of a run goes.