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How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?

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rfv855

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« on: <03-27-13/1630:44> »
Something which is actually bothers me when reading about attempts to take out great dragons. Shadowrun is 60 years in the future, and technology had all that time to develop.

Yet reading about attempts to kill great dragons strongly remind of what a military of a modern day third world country might try.

Great dragons are suppose to be a major treat to national security of major countries. Lets imagine that you have a major air based treat to say modern USA, which is already caused civilian casualties is tens of thousands range. The treat is also proved to be immune to conventional weapons.

I wouldn't expect a few helicopters, and a few fighters. I would expect 100 interceptors, armed with heat seeking air-air missiles with a tactical nuclear warheads. And the target being terminated within seconds of engagement. 

And that is only speaking of unclassified military capabilities.

Going to more classified stuff, there are fun weapons like Casaba-Howitzer- a nuclear shaped charge based directed energy weapon. To put it short, it takes a city killing nuke, and concentrates most of energy released into a directed energy ray.

Which means you could put say a 10 megaton version on a satellite in a low orbit, and put enough of those in orbit to cover territory of the selected country. Combined with surveillance satellites, it would allow you to instantly vaporize any great dragon taking dragon form which entered your territory.

And Casaba-Howitzer was a weapon developed in sixties. It is very likely that military has more advanced weapons today.

Which leads to question- what happened to military in Shadowrun, and why any of great dragons which proved to be a treat to national security is still alive?


Critias

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« Reply #1 on: <03-27-13/1636:08> »
This is something that's come up a lot over the years, peaking (perhaps) right after Ghostwalker's "ta-da!" self-introduction to the city of Denver.

You'll find that opinions vary wildly;  opinions of the setting's magical versus meat power levels, opinions on the power levels of dragons, opinions on the system's ability to run top-tier stuff and not fall apart mechanically, opinions on the intellect of dragons, opinions on the magical ability of dragons and their servants/allies, opinions on heavy firepower, opinions on sensors, opinions on all kinds of stuff.

PeterSmith

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« Reply #2 on: <03-27-13/1802:48> »
Without going into conspiracy theory areas (which it's easy to do here), you do know the largest air-to-air nuclear weapon developed had a yield of 1.5kt (AIR-2 Genie) and it was only rated for use on four aircraft? The weapon was taken out of service in 1988 as that was the year the F-106 was retired. If you want to go smaller, you have the AIM-26 Falcon. It was a guided missile (the Genie was an unguided rocket), had a yield of 250t (1/6th of the Genie), and left service in 1972 as the warheads were converted for use in the AGM-62 glide bomb. So if a Great showed up today, there wouldn't be any small nukes to toss at it.
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Retrokinesis

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« Reply #3 on: <03-27-13/1805:12> »
I'd imagine it hasn't happened because no one really wants it to. Consider: the United States and Russia alone have, today, enough nuclear weaponry to kill ever living thing on the planet several times over. Nothing, not even a Great Dragon, is going to survive even a fraction of that. Given the general unreliability of nukes in Shadowrun, I assume they've developed alternatives (see: Thor shots) that are even more potentially devastating.

So, yes, it's probably something they could do. But the dragons wouldn't go down without a fight and the damage would be catastrophic. There might not be much of an Earth left. Ultimately, the dragons won't start a war (no matter what Loftwyr pretends) because they'd ultimately lose and metahumanity won't because the cost of victory would be too high. It's better for everyone to just preserve the status quo and hope something else changes (probably the Horrors, but that's a whole different can of worms).

I wouldn't try to model any of it with SR4's game mechanics, though. It's not really set-up to handle things like 20 Thor shots crashing into a grade 30+ initiate dragon.
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RHat

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« Reply #4 on: <03-27-13/1827:49> »
The question might be "how long would a modern military last against a Great Dragon".  Even with weapons specifically designed to fight dragons, there's no guaruntee of the result.  And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World, a dragon's magical defenses that would keep weapons from connecting, the possibility of a Redirect Thor Shot spell...
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Nath

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« Reply #5 on: <03-27-13/1843:57> »
And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World
Quite the opposite actually. In the novel Find Your Own Truth, it's something that does not want nukes to work. The other notorious nuclear weapons failure were the North Korean attack on Japan in 2006 and the Lone Eagle Incident in 2009, before the beginning of the Sixth World (as Israel counter-attack on Libya in 2004, that destroyed half Libyan cities). In 2030, nukes launched by India and Pakistan at each other position in the Kashmir in 2030 did explode.


RHat

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« Reply #6 on: <03-27-13/1852:40> »
And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World
Quite the opposite actually. In the novel Find Your Own Truth, it's something that does not want nukes to work. The other notorious nuclear weapons failure were the North Korean attack on Japan in 2006 and the Lone Eagle Incident in 2009, before the beginning of the Sixth World (as Israel counter-attack on Libya in 2004, that destroyed half Libyan cities). In 2030, nukes launched by India and Pakistan at each other position in the Kashmir in 2030 did explode.



Haven't read that one, but we're saying the same thing - nukes working properly is the exception, rather than the rule, and often when they do work it isn't as expected, as with the Cermak Blast.
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Nath

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« Reply #7 on: <03-27-13/1939:55> »
Haven't read that one, but we're saying the same thing - nukes working properly is the exception, rather than the rule, and often when they do work it isn't as expected, as with the Cermak Blast.
No, we're not.

North Korea is the most recent of the declared nuclear power, and their attack was made a desperate move while they were losing the war (and they lost it). The Lone Eagle was launched by Amerindian activists who seized control of a nuclear silo by force, while the Delta Force was in the process of shooting at them, and even if they did threaten to use it, there's still no proof they actually intended to make the move. The Cermak Blast happened when a small yield nuke was detonated right in the middle of an assembly of powerful insect spirits.

Lybia? It worked. Kashmir? It worked. French underground testing off the coast of French Guiana? It works. When there's no utterly specific context associated, nukes do work. Calling those the exception is reversing the burden of proof.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #8 on: <03-27-13/2014:33> »
Quite the opposite actually. In the novel Find Your Own Truth, it's something that does not want nukes to work. The other notorious nuclear weapons failure were the North Korean attack on Japan in 2006 and the Lone Eagle Incident in 2009, before the beginning of the Sixth World (as Israel counter-attack on Libya in 2004, that destroyed half Libyan cities). In 2030, nukes launched by India and Pakistan at each other position in the Kashmir in 2030 did explode.

It's called "plot device" otherwise known as "it's in the script" :P
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Prodigy

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« Reply #9 on: <03-27-13/2047:40> »
Also, great dragons have this awesome ability called Twist Fate. "oh look, the nuke was faulty"

Wakshaani

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« Reply #10 on: <03-27-13/2114:47> »
Yeah, nukes aren't reliable in the Sixth World. They *often* work, but they don't *always* work. Even if they do, setting off a nuke in your own land is ... well, risky. Great Dragons have access to a wide array of spirits and magics that aren't fully understood yet. When they aren't prepared (Hi, Firewings!), a couple of fighters can strafe them bloody and shoot them down with rockets ... they're ultimately just big winged dinosaurs. When they *are* prepared, you get Sirrurg fighting for hours, dodging strikes and exploding planes. How many shots were aimed at a dragon who was just an illusion while the real deal was invisible and 500 meters to teh left?

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DamienHollow

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« Reply #11 on: <03-27-13/2345:23> »
It's called "plot device" otherwise known as "it's in the script" :P

So the most powerful person in 2070, is the editor.

Supine

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« Reply #12 on: <03-28-13/0028:03> »
Dragon's can't win if they don't have a world to live in.


Reiper

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« Reply #13 on: <03-28-13/0345:54> »
The question might be "how long would a modern military last against a Great Dragon".  Even with weapons specifically designed to fight dragons, there's no guaruntee of the result.  And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World, a dragon's magical defenses that would keep weapons from connecting, the possibility of a Redirect Thor Shot spell...

Also, if one Great Dragon was attacked then there is a pretty good chance the rest would start working together to take care of the threats.

One great dragon is going to be very costly to take care of, even if it is a fast fight with high tech weapons, against multiples, you're going to lose the war.
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GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #14 on: <03-28-13/0527:26> »
They probaly have all sorts of moles in various militaries and corps too, when they don't just own them outright. You know Dunk did.