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military armor capacity question

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mrjames

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« on: <10-16-10/0050:16> »
A question came up about the heavy assualt armor and capacity in my group. I get that you can have up to 20 points of capacity in the armor. Do you get the maximum armor modification on top of that? I don't believe so, but it has been a heated topic in the group. Pg 44 of arsenal details both, and to me it appears that they establish that regular armor works under maximum armor mods, and that armor suits work under strickly capacity.

thanks

Ultra Violet

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« Reply #1 on: <10-16-10/0532:04> »
Yes both! This things are dangerous! And probably do no good in player hands. ::)

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #2 on: <10-16-10/0929:06> »
Milspec is scaaary.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

mrjames

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« Reply #3 on: <10-16-10/1010:09> »
The only reason i would disagree with them stacking is the languaged used. The maxium armor mod states it's interaction with normal armor. Then it says similiar too, and not  in addition to for armor suits. I think it wold says something to the effect of, in addtion to the maximum armor modification armor suits also recieve capacity points similiar to cyberware. It appears confusing that the example they give is using fire resistence 5 insulation 3 and shock frills that equal 9 for maximum armor rating . Yet, if you look at capacity, the samething would cost 4 points. It also states that every modification takes up capacity points, which would not be stated if they stacked.
It appears to me that they put the armor suits in the same catagory of cyberware placing them outside normal armor modification rules. You would run out of capacity before maximum armor rating as the modifications are counting towards capacity anyway.

FastJack

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« Reply #4 on: <10-16-10/1200:59> »
Okay, let's look at the section as a whole for Armor and Clothing -> Armor Rules in Arsenal.

Quote from: Arsenal, p. 44
These rules are all optional—use them if you like, discard if you don’t. They complement the rules for armor given on pp. 148 and 315, SR4.

That means each rule is optional in and of itself. Tweaking Armor Encumbrance, Maximum Armor Modifications, Armor Suit Capacity, and Armor Degradation are each a separate rule and you can pick and choose which one you want and don't want in your game.

That being said, the Max Armor Mod and Armor Suit Capacity are two separate and unique rules that can't be used together. By using MAM, you're creating a Ratings capacity are all armor. This means that when you add modifications, you look at the Rating of the modification to "eat up" the Ratings capacity. So, for the example in the book, the Fire Resistance is 5, the Insulation is 3 and the Shock Frills (that don't have a rating) default to 1, giving the 9 Ratings points that fill the armor's capacity. If you use the MAM on Heavy Milspec Armor, that means it can accept a maximum of 24 Ratings points of armor modifications before it "fills up".

The Capacities listed for each armor in Arsenal are all optional, intended to be used ONLY if you're using the ASC optional rule. Capacity is meant to make the Full Body Armor suits more like cybernetic exoskeletons (HALO, Metroid, etc.). This was probably placed in the advanced rules because in the basic rules, you had no limit (except your cred) to the amount of modifications you could make to your armor. That idea was fine and dandy when the most powerful armor was Full Body that gave you a 10/8 and was restricted. But I like to think the developers realized the power they were putting into your hands with the Milspec and other suits in Arsenal and added this rule (and suggesting it's a good "base" rule, even though it is still optional), to keep some balance to the game.

Ultra Violet

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« Reply #5 on: <10-16-10/1243:46> »
@FastJack
Sorry but that is wrong!

Yes, they are optional. And yes, they are both different rules. But they fit together like pieces of a puzzle.
The Maximum Armor Modifications gives a capacity only for "Armor Modifications" (see SR4, p. 317 or SR4A, p. 327 and Arsenal p.50).
The Armor Suit Capacity is only for armor suits, and gives another capacity value for "Armor Add-On" (see list; mostly electronics and sensors).
So we have two Capacity values one for this and one for that.

And yes that makes a Milspec scaaary!

Welshman

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« Reply #6 on: <10-16-10/1251:42> »
Given these are interpretations of the rules and unless Jason or one of the Shadow Minions (I'm a Manei Domini Minion, I don't count) comes in and makes a ruling, then we should all be sure to stick to facts or make sure we state our opinions as opinions.

:)
The Welshman
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FastJack

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« Reply #7 on: <10-16-10/1350:52> »
@UV How can they work together? MAM uses the Rating of the modification as the Capacity value, while the ASC has the Capacity listed in the sidebar and tables? Using them together, I could say that Full Body armor has Capacity 15 based on MAM, but use the ACS table to fill that capacity.

OR, I could say both are optional (as Arsenal says) and decide not to use capacities at all, and there is no limit to the modifications you can put on Armor.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #8 on: <10-16-10/1356:04> »
It's called "cherry picking," FJ.  Sometimes folks pick the rules they like and discard the parts they don't.

Milspec armor, either way, is pretty scary.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

FastJack

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« Reply #9 on: <10-16-10/1358:24> »
It's called "cherry picking," FJ.  Sometimes folks pick the rules they like and discard the parts they don't.

Milspec armor, either way, is pretty scary.
Yeah, I realize that it's cherry picking, but I don't like it when two optional rules are being smashed together to gain bonuses that (in my opinion) the developers intended.

voydangel

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« Reply #10 on: <10-16-10/1602:29> »
i believe you meant to say "developers never intended."
My tips for new GM's
Unless it is coming from an official source, RAI = "Rules As Imagined."
SR1+SR2+SR3++SR4++SR5+++h+b+++B+D382UBIE-RN---DSF-W+m+(o++)gm+MP

FastJack

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« Reply #11 on: <10-16-10/1655:20> »
i believe you meant to say "developers never intended."
Yeah, thanks. ;)

Ultra Violet

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« Reply #12 on: <10-16-10/1847:37> »
@FastJack
Or you could say, both get together.
MAM for every clothing as standard modifications, and ASC additional to all amor suits, as a bonus. It's not as much as without a limit, but it's more than a ordinary clothing has. And if you look at the capacities needed for the Milspec stuff you will see my reason.
It is a compromise, and in my opinion the best result.
Still you can't get a Iron Man Suit with that limitations, but you get a good combat suit, with a couple of gadgets...

Btw: My players don't get such toys in their hands... that is only something for the heavy bad guys (NPC).
« Last Edit: <10-16-10/1852:05> by Ultra Violet »

FastJack

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« Reply #13 on: <10-16-10/2009:07> »
That's more along the lines I believe the designers intended. MAM only for armor that's not full-body and ASC for full-body suits.

mrjames

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« Reply #14 on: <10-16-10/2344:31> »
The rules actually contradict each other. The MAM charges you for items like shock frills, but the capacity of the ASC does not. If it was meant to be one rule, then it wouldn't have obvious issues like that. If it was one rule, you could say you're putting shock frills in the capacity part, and get it for free. Then in the same breath, claim more mods using the MAM without paying any capacity points for that. If you took heavy assault armor, and look at the MAM of like 24, then add 20 points of capacity. Then flip flop things to get items for free so it does not take up capacity or MAM. It starts to demonstrates how uncompatible the two actually are.