[Bradd]

I've been trying to figure out what Mystic Adept rating limits are supposed to be. The FAQ contradicts the rulebook:

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), maximum spell Force, overcasting, etc.

For a mystic adept's adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes powers that require Magic Tests like Attribute Boost, the maximum rating of leveled adept powers, etc.

But SR4A explicitly states that adept max ratings use the full Magic score, not just the Adept portion. Is this a deliberate change to the rules, or did the FAQ compiler just overlook that rule?

I don't care for the ruling on maximum spell Force either. I think it's directly analogous to maximum power rating, and more important I think it's reasonably balanced to allow the full Magic rating for spell Force. The main question is whether it can let you make a better magician than a Magician, or a better adept than an Adept.

For a spellcaster or conjurer, adept powers are essentially the same as permanent buff spells, with a permanent penalty to your Magic pools. The penalty isn't quite as bad as the sustained spell penalty (since it only applies to Magic rolls), but the benefits aren't as good or as flexible as spells either. Ultimately, you're better off being a full mage with sustaining foci or quickening. Therefore, I don't think it matters if you allow full Magic for Force, since it's not really a good build anyway.

What about power-oriented characters? Is it appropriate for "adepts" to cast Force 6 spells? I've been thinking about it, and I don't really think it's a problem. It's pretty useless for Combat spells, because you'll only have 4-6 dice in your spellcasting pool, and that's just not enough to beat defenses reliably. Meanwhile, it doesn't make a big difference for Health spells like stat boosters, since you only need 3-4 hits on those anyway. Instead of spending 2 Power Points on initiative powers, a Mystic Adept could set aside 2 points of Magic to get +3 initiative AND +4 to all stats. Sure, you'd have to overcast the spells, but then you could use foci or quickening to make them permanent.

(Yes, this means that Mystic Adepts can be better than Adepts, although there's a lot of investment involved. I doubt you can afford it all at character creation, and I don't know whether the character be playable early on.)

Therefore, I think there's no need to restrict maximum spell (or spirit) Force for Mystic Adepts. They're still weaker than pure Magicians, and it doesn't affect the things that make Mystic Adepts better than Adepts. Am I overlooking anything here?

[Walks Through Walls]

If you let a mystic adept spend all of his points on adept powers and then have total spell casting ability then the mystic adept is better than a magician or adept clearly. The increase reflexes would allow multiple passes w/o any sustaining penalty, and not even have to worry about the spell getting dispelled or spell lock broken.

This is if you just power game it. There are hundreds of more subtle advantages also. Things like kinetics then cast spells at top force on top of it to influence people. Yikes.

No the spell casting level and summoning levels need to be limited or it becomes very broken.

As a player of a mystic adept would love to see it the other way, but it is unbalancing to allow it

[FastJack]

When you split the Magic attribute between Adept and Spellcasting, the Adept portion uses only the Magic points for power, the rest go to determine the Magic rating for skills, Force and drain. To determine things like the cost to raise your Magic attribute and such, the full Magic attribute is used.

This is to show that Adepts that split their magic abilities are not as good as those that focus on one aspect or another. If Mystic Adepts can cast spells at their full Magic attribute, what is the sense in playing a Mage at all? And vice versa for Physical Adepts. If you don't split the Magic attribute, then every awakened character would be a Mystic Adept, spending their full Magic attribute on Adept powers and casting spells at their Magic rating.

[Edit: Ninja'd by Walks! ]

[Muspellsheimr]

Rules as Written

The Drain value and maximum Force of Sorcery & Conjuring is not a factor of the skill used. As such, it uses the full Magic rating of the Mystic Adept.

The maximum level of Adept powers again uses the full Magic rating of the Mystic Adept.

The number of dice provided for Sorcery & Conjuring skills from the Magic attribute, as well as the number of Power Points available for Adept powers, both use the Magic attribute dedicated to each side by the Mystic Adept as appropriate.



This is one of several instances where the Frequently Asked Questions document directly contradicts the rules. As the FAQ is not an Errata document, it does not have the authority to alter the functionality of the rules (official or not - this was even directly stated by the FAQ author).



In my experience, using the actual rules in this instance makes Mystic Adepts playable, not overpowered, and I would strongly suggest using it.

Regardless, you can use whatever method you want in your own game - just be aware that the FAQ ruling is a House Rule, and you should treat it as such.

[Bradd]

If you let a mystic adept spend all of his points on adept powers and then have total spell casting ability then the mystic adept is better than a magician or adept clearly. The increase reflexes would allow multiple passes w/o any sustaining penalty, and not even have to worry about the spell getting dispelled or spell lock broken.

You would still lose Magic dice from your spellcasting pool, at least -2 if you're buying Improved Reflexes. While the power is better than the spell in some ways, you effectively still have a penalty for "sustaining" the power. It gets worse if you compare Improved Reflexes 3 to the quickened spell equivalent. Why give up 4 dice on all Magic tests when you can just spend a little karma instead?

Don't forget that mystics don't get astral perception, either. That costs another 1 PP (i.e., another -1 die to magic tests).

I just don't see how a mystic can possibly be a better mage than a Magician, even if you do allow full force casting. Spell force really only makes a difference for combat casting, and mystic adepts make terrible combat mages because of the dice penalties.

I agree with Muspellsheimr: I think mystics are underpowered by the FAQ ruling, and I prefer his/her reading of the rules as written.

[FastJack]

We're not saying they ARE better. We're saying if you allow him to use his full Magic Attribute to buy powers AND cast spells, then he is better than a regular Mage or Physical Adept.

[Bradd]

I think there's some confusion here. My understanding is that, by SR4A rules, mystics use limited Magic for their dice pools and power points, but full Magic for everything else, including rating & force limits.

If you let a mystic use full Magic for dice pools, that would be a problem, but I'm not suggesting that. I only think they should get full Magic for maximum Force and overcasting.

[FastJack]

From the example in SR4a:

Roxanne is a mystic adept with a Magic attribute of 4. She spends 1 point of Magic for 1 Power Point, which she uses to purchase four levels of Rapid Healing. Her other 3 points of Magic are dedicated to Magic skills. When using her Magic-linked dice pools, such as Spellcasting or Summoning, she will be able to allocate 3 dice for Magic (since the other is tied up in her adept powers). For all other uses, her Magic attribute counts at its full value of 4.

It does sound like they get the full Magic for Force limits and such... In which case I humbly apology if that's the case. I always understood it that they'd be limited to the non-Adept Magic attribute.

[Bradd]

Right, I'm aware of that example, but it doesn't address the question. I agree that Roxanne only gets 3 dice when rolling Spellcasting & Summoning. However, for all other uses, she uses Magic 4, and I think that should include maximum spell and spirit Force.

The FAQ doesn't help here, because it directly contradicts the rules on at least one point (maximum rating of adept powers). I think it also contradicts a plain reading of the rules regarding maximum Force, because that is not a Magic-linked dice pool. Furthermore, I don't think there's any balance problem in allowing a maximum Force of 4 instead of 3.

Edit: Thanks, and sorry about the confusion. I realize that it's easy to conflate the Magic pool with maximum Force, since they are usually linked. However, I don't think they are in this case. I also don't think it's a problem, but I'm open to discussion on that point.

[Walks Through Walls]

Bradd one of your arguments is flawed in that you keep saying that the mystic adept is at a disadvantage since when the power is in use it causes a -2 die pool modifier. It doesn't say that anywhere. This is one of the advantages to the adept powers is that they are innate and don't have to be sustained.

As far as the max spell casting force I always read it as that is part of the sorcery part of your magic and so is limited as such though I can see what you are saying and am not sure of the right answer.

[Glyph]

He wasn't saying that the adept had a sustaining penalty.  He was saying that having 2 points of Magic tied up in adept powers is the equivalent of a sustaining penalty.  In both cases, you lose two points from your spellcasting pool.

[FastJack]

Okay, so the FAQ is pretty clear:

Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), maximum spell Force, overcasting, etc.

For a mystic adept's adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes powers that require Magic Tests like Attribute Boost, the maximum rating of leveled adept powers, etc.

For all other purposes—i.e., non-Magic-linked skills—the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, being assensed, etc.

So for the example above, a mystic adept with Magic 6 with 2 points devoted to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. His adept powers are limited to rating 4 or lower.

So, the Magic Attribute not assigned to power does limit the Force of spells. I'm not sure what the question is anymore. I don't see the contradiction of Adept powers that everyone keeps mentioning.

[Darkeus]

Yeah, the FAQ is not the ruling I use.  The FAQ predates Shadowrun Anniversary Edition IIRC and so I go by what the RAW says here.  

For example, we have Ashren.  Ashren happens to be the Mystic Adept in my SR game.  Ashren has a Magic rating of six.  Ashren dedicated 4 points to Adept powers and 2 points to Magic skills.  This means that he gets to spend four power points for adept powers and uses two dice to cast spells.  For all other purposes, as written via SR4A, the full magic rating is used.  That means, to me, that when he decides to cast a Powerbolt spell he can:

A). Cast that spell at a Maximum of force six and overcast up to force 12.

B).  Ashren cast spells equal to his apportioned dice (which is two) to cast spells + his spellcasting skill.  So Ashren would cast spells with 6 dice (2 + 4 spellcasting skill).

C).  If sustaining a spell, he loses -2 to his total pool from B.  This would make it four (2 Magic dice appropriated + 4 Spellcasting - 2 sustaining penalty).

That is how I see it.  The FAQ is very contradictory here and I just go by what SR4A says.  Has worked well for my group, he likes to kick ass more than cast spells anyway!

[FastJack]

But the rules for Mystic Adepts haven't changed between the SR4 and SR4a. So I'm not sure that I'd write off the FAQ. Granted, I think they could have added the line from the FAQ into the SR4a to dispel any confusion, but I still think that your spells are limited to the non-adept powers Magic Attribute, simply because you are concentrating you magic into your body for those adept powers. So, you don't have access to that magic to cast spells or summon spirits.

[Glyph]

Okay, so the FAQ is pretty clear:

Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), maximum spell Force, overcasting, etc.

For a mystic adept's adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes powers that require Magic Tests like Attribute Boost, the maximum rating of leveled adept powers, etc.

For all other purposes—i.e., non-Magic-linked skills—the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, being assensed, etc.

So for the example above, a mystic adept with Magic 6 with 2 points devoted to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. His adept powers are limited to rating 4 or lower.

So, the Magic Attribute not assigned to power does limit the Force of spells. I'm not sure what the question is anymore. I don't see the contradiction of Adept powers that everyone keeps mentioning.

In my book (the basic SR4 rulebook, but I think it is still the same in the SR4A edition), there is an example of a mystic adept with four points of Magic who spends 1 point of Magic for 1 Power Point, and then uses it to purchase four levels of Rapid Healing.  According to the FAQ, that mystic adept would be limited to 1 level of Rapid Healing, since she only allocated a single point to adept powers.  Unfortunately, this makes the FAQ sound a lot less authoritative about how the Magic attribute assigned to power limits the Force of spells - which is a genuinely grey area of the rules.