[PiXeL01]

As I was in the process of updating some of my compilations I noticed something about the Norse tradition. In Shadow Spells it is listed as having the drain stat of Logic while Forbidden Arcane turns that into Charisma.
Which is it?

[firebug]

If I recall, it was Logic in 4th edition as well, with the reasoning being that magic in Norse is done via memorization of their runic alphabet.  I'd go with Shadow Spells over Forbidden Arcana as well, because FA is an unreasonably flawed product that didn't receive enough analysis before completion.

[PiXeL01]

Guess we can add Druidic magic to the list of Charisma Traditions due to Forbidden Arcana ...

[firebug]

Guess we can add Druidic magic to the list of Charisma Traditions due to Forbidden Arcana ...

Forbidden Arcana's entire tradition section disgusts me.  Please don't use anything from it, save for maybe the Olympian tradition.  I've combed it for errata and basically every tradition (whether new or "updated") is full of utterly baffling decisions, random and pointless modifiers, awful Mary Sue shit, or just being unbalanced (both too powerful and too weak) for no reason at all.

[ShadowcatX]

Some things needed the boost, Drake's have a history of being god-awful but Magic as a drain resisting stat is very interesting. And the romani tradition's willpower *2 for drain, while op currently, could have been balanced if they had hit it's magic a bit harder. (I would have liked to have seen them as only aspected magicians, which yes would have made it far and away the best for aspected magicians but it would have made interesting character choices.)

Basically I think the book has amazing ideas and terrible ideas but almost universally terrible mechanics.

[Rosa]

In theory both logic and charisma should be applicable to choose as a drain stat in regards to norse magic. The ancient norse had several types of magic one being Galdr which is the one focused on memorization, chants and incantations, so in essence fairly hermetic in its practice, the other being Seidr which was more akin to a shamanic tradition and was mainly practiced by women, while male prationers of Seidr did exist it was considered an unmanly practice, though Odin,the chief male God of the norse pantheon practised it on numerous occasions.

So depending on whether you want your norse magician to be a practioner of Galdr or Seidr,  you could choose whether you wanted to use logic or charisma,  just to have a little more flair and actual realism to the tradition.

[PiXeL01]

I guess the same distinction can be made with the two Druid traditions. One the intuitive  English and the other Charismatic Celtic. Not that I know much about either in reality.

[Rosa]

With a lot of RL traditions in fact. It's a bit funny that they actually bothered to do it with the Wicca tradition but not with others.

[firebug]

With a lot of RL traditions in fact. It's a bit funny that they actually bothered to do it with the Wicca tradition but not with others.

It is weird.  It's really the kind of thing I feel like you need to go all-or-nothing in...  The thing is, if you do it too much, it basically makes the mechanics of a tradition feel completely arbitrary, which is something Forbidden Arcana did that I hate.  It's one thing to expand upon a tradition with information about the real-world religion it's based on, and to bring that into Shadowrun to show how varied actual religion is and was.  But it's another to basically make every aspect of it into a free pick-and-mix that completely ruins the purpose and benefit of connecting Shadowrun magic to real world religion in the first place. I'm sure to some people it sounds cool, but I don't like that this book would let someone play a Olympian-Voodoo Magician summoning possession spirits of Greek monsters and also this other Christian spirit they just figured out how to do, plus these other two Hermetic elementals they got from taking Chain Breaker.  Then later they take Paradigm Shift into an Islamic-Wiccan.

[PiXeL01]

More and more I wish they had come up with this “Universal Magic Theory” back in SR3. By now it has turned into make your own tradition. Just look at the Planar Entity Mentor Spirit and Draconic Magic Tradition.
...
Should have just stuck with the SR2 version. Two paths that’s it

[firebug]

Draconic Magic is unacceptable...  Drakes exist so that players can be draconic without it being overpowered, because obviously you couldn't just play a dragon without it being stupid.  Draconic magic is just some idiot going "Well, dragons are super OP and like magic-incarnate, right?  So it makes sense for them to have a tradition that's super OP too!" End thought.  No thoughts about players actually using it, at all.  Can summon every spirit type and they all are applicable to every category of spell, can use rituals for free, don't need magic lodge materials, and their Drain scales on their Magic rating...  Oh but they can't have a mentor spirit and can't join magical groups or get help initiating.  Sadface.  That someone added a box about playing one as a PC but never stopped to think that it was too powerful upsets me a lot.

[PiXeL01]

But but the drawback is you NEED to be under the boot of a dragon...

[Rosa]

I totally get that most people want it to be fairly straightforward, it's different for me and in the games I'm a part of both as gm and player since traditions play a major part in those games, but if every tradition had to be expanded upon in such a way I think a lot of people would take one look and go "nah can't be bothered to read a novel to pick a tradition, I'll just be a mage" and that would be a shame, traditions brings flavour to the game and you can always research them some more yourself if you want to.

I totally agree about the draconic tradition. The funny thing is, Senko actually made a thread about using magic as a drain stat way before FA came out as a thought experiment and literally everyone responded with "nonononono it will make magicians totally op if you do that " a few months later we get just that. ......I mean if it's because they wanted to make drakes a bit better there were plenty of ways to do that without making a game breakingly powerful tradition.

[PiXeL01]

Good thing the Strain I infected cannot be drakes, due I did see a thread about that not long ago

[ShadowcatX]

Draconic Magic is unacceptable...  Drakes exist so that players can be draconic without it being overpowered, because obviously you couldn't just play a dragon without it being stupid.  Draconic magic is just some idiot going "Well, dragons are super OP and like magic-incarnate, right?  So it makes sense for them to have a tradition that's super OP too!" End thought.  No thoughts about players actually using it, at all.  Can summon every spirit type and they all are applicable to every category of spell, can use rituals for free, don't need magic lodge materials, and their Drain scales on their Magic rating...  Oh but they can't have a mentor spirit and can't join magical groups or get help initiating.  Sadface.  That someone added a box about playing one as a PC but never stopped to think that it was too powerful upsets me a lot.

Because it really isn't until you get to stupid amounts of karma. It isn't hard to have an 11 drain resistance on a human to start, a Drake can get 12 an elf can get 13. And everyone can scale drain resistance with centering, Drake's just get it twice.

For summoning every type of spirit (I read that to mean the standard + the 3 new ones in Street Grimoire) it's nice but your PC is probably already summoning the best one or two anyways, so it is flexibility rather than power.

I'll admit I rarely even think about what spirits are on what category so those aren't huge deals to me. And a lodge is a few thousand Nuyen and really, a mage probably wants one anyways, if only as a keep out sign.

And the cost of that is being a Drake. Drake's being one of the most under powered things in Shadowrun.

Now as your karma climbs and being a Drake costs less percentage of your total karma, draconic magic starts being a better deal. But at low power levels? Not the worst thing ever.