NEWS

Supernatural Undead Vampires?

  • 14 Replies
  • 7170 Views

NightDrifter

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 4
« on: <01-23-18/2307:11> »
Now I've been reading some descriptions of the Vampires from shadowrun from TV Tropes and here's two that have been troubling so far: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/OurVampiresAreDifferent/TabletopGames

Quote
Shadowrun Vampires are human sufferers of Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus (HMHVV) class I. They require a blood-only diet, are severely allergic to sunlight due to the virus responding poorly to UV radiation, and suffer a continually depleting Essence, which they replenish by attacking sapient, sentient life (i.e. other metahumans). Most of the various vampire powers come from the fact that vampires are naturally magical and can use magic untrained as well as most mages. Being essentially rapists of the soul, there are no Friendly Neighborhood Vampires in Shadowrun, they will at best be Affably or Pragmatically Evil — which means they are more common as shadowrunners than you'd think.

Not only are the Vampires in shadowrun looks like they're not only unplayable but also I'm not a big fan of the whole concept of Vampires being a "Virus" which sounds like Blade instead of being actual undead corpses that are entirely 100% supernatural (especially ones that are immortal, can turn into bats, wolves, mist, etc) especially I'm been wondering if it's possible to incorporate the classic Gothic and Modern (from GURPs Bloodtypes) style Vampires or basically incorporating something similar to "Vampire: the Masquerade" into Shadowrun?

Rather in short, is it possible to entirely replace HMHVV Vamps or add with actual Undead Supernatural Vampires that don't feed on essence but soley on Blood (which their bites are not infectious and they can take blood points and leave their victims perfectly alive and healthy hence they can recover and plus their bites are pleasurable?) which basically this game has been directed as a alternative to VtM Vampires but it seems Shadowrun already has it's problems how it does Vampires though which I simply don't like at all.
« Last Edit: <01-23-18/2309:12> by NightDrifter »

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #1 on: <01-24-18/0252:17> »
Sure,
just use the supplement Mirrors for nWoD and take the "Bleeding Edge" rules to play cyberpunk in the WoD  ;)

As for gothic vampires that don't leave lasting damage to their victims: No. At least not if you still want to keep the SR feeling.
Everything has its price and becoming one of the infected means you have a choice between dying or becoming a monster.

That said: Your game, your rules. Do whatever you like at your table. (if you are just interested in a Camarilla in SR, I can recommend the Dark Terrors source book)
Just don't expect to find many fans for this idea.

talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

NightDrifter

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 4
« Reply #2 on: <01-24-18/0305:48> »
Sure,
just use the supplement Mirrors for nWoD and take the "Bleeding Edge" rules to play cyberpunk in the WoD  ;)

That said: Your game, your rules. Do whatever you like at your table. (if you are just interested in a Camarilla in SR, I can recommend the Dark Terrors source book)
Just don't expect to find many fans for this idea.

Except I really don't like WoD's Vampires either for alot of reasons.

As for gothic vampires that don't leave lasting damage to their victims: No. At least not if you still want to keep the SR feeling.
Everything has its price and becoming one of the infected means you have a choice between dying or becoming a monster.

That's exactly why I wanted to replace or add Gothic Vampires to Shadowruns setting since I don't like how Shadowrun has written Vampires due to all of this.



Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #3 on: <01-24-18/0500:33> »
As I said: You do you.
If you want help mechanics wise: Remove essence loss as weakness and essence drain as power. Done.

Although with that you remove the whole reason why vampires have to stay in the shadows. Now they are perfectly capable to drink any old blood and otherwise function as anyone else in society. The corporations now won't hesitate to infect people purposefully to gain access to magic capable employees. (And really, immortality, regeneration and magic are a small price for some new allergies that can be kept in check with a bit of magic)
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

ShadowcatX

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
« Reply #4 on: <01-24-18/1520:00> »
You can make anything when you're the one who controls the rules. But in actual Shadowrun, no. All vampires are HMHVV, there are no undead vampires walking around they are all infected. The closest things to undead in shadowrun are possessed corpses or cyberzombies (which is basically a possessed corpse, it just happens to be possessed by the person whose corpse it is).

Carmody

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1726
« Reply #5 on: <01-24-18/1652:07> »
I would also mention shedims, which are possessing dead corpses.
My profile picture is a crop of Alfredo Lopez Jr  Mickey/Wolverine.

NightDrifter

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 4
« Reply #6 on: <01-24-18/1917:45> »
You can make anything when you're the one who controls the rules. But in actual Shadowrun, no. All vampires are HMHVV, there are no undead vampires walking around they are all infected. The closest things to undead in shadowrun are possessed corpses or cyberzombies (which is basically a possessed corpse, it just happens to be possessed by the person whose corpse it is).

Well I also had a another thought that why not have both Undead and HMHVV Vampires existing at the same time?

Anyways due to the fact there are "no Undead Vampires" does create problems since if possessed corpses exist then why not Undead Vampires? Especially how do you explain Vampires like Dracula and Carmilla then if they existed in history? Since there has to be Vampires that existed before HMHVV became a thing?

Anyways I just don't like how Vampires are written in Shadowrun even though HMHVV exists but I wish there should be alternatives especially playing as a Vampire in a cyberpunk setting.

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #7 on: <01-24-18/2343:10> »
Well, the legend of Carmilla can be easily explained in Shadowrun. She wasn't a Vampire. She was one of the immortal elves that stuck around from the 4th age and was using Blood Magic to try and create a spike in magic (for some reason). The legend that she used the blood of innocents to keep herself youthful was just a cause-effect mismatch. She was always youthful (see: immortal elf), and the blood was being used for magic, but the two weren't (strictly) related.

Another thing that happens a lot in Shadowrun is the idea that legend/lore that turns out to be true come the 6th world is caused by those things actually happening in rare cases of magical "flares" during the 5th age. Bigfoot/Yeti sightings, for example, are a case of Sasquatches appearing before the magic returning to the world. So, who says that HMHVV infected Vampires didn't exist before too?

And really, I have to ask why? Why is the fact that Vampires are a result of a Virus instead of some sort of Undead Curse in the SR setting a problem? They essentially function in the exact same way, so what does having the different cause matter?

NightDrifter

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 4
« Reply #8 on: <01-25-18/0001:16> »
Well, the legend of Carmilla can be easily explained in Shadowrun. She wasn't a Vampire. She was one of the immortal elves that stuck around from the 4th age and was using Blood Magic to try and create a spike in magic (for some reason). The legend that she used the blood of innocents to keep herself youthful was just a cause-effect mismatch. She was always youthful (see: immortal elf), and the blood was being used for magic, but the two weren't (strictly) related.

And now we're getting the part where things become really problematic now when you now try to rewrite already established lore just to make sense of the gameworld itself. Carmilla is a Vampire not a Elf (sure is hell she doesn't have elf ears) period, thanks for ruining the legitimacy of the story.

Otherwords this "explanation" can go to the trash bin.

Another thing that happens a lot in Shadowrun is the idea that legend/lore that turns out to be true come the 6th world is caused by those things actually happening in rare cases of magical "flares" during the 5th age. Bigfoot/Yeti sightings, for example, are a case of Sasquatches appearing before the magic returning to the world. So, who says that HMHVV infected Vampires didn't exist before too?

Because it's implied that HMHVV is a recent thing?

And really, I have to ask why? Why is the fact that Vampires are a result of a Virus instead of some sort of Undead Curse in the SR setting a problem? They essentially function in the exact same way, so what does having the different cause matter?

It is a problem because they are different, Virus Vampires are clearly not Undead that's for sure hence they actually don't function the same way or rather they have don't have the same aesthetic appeal to it and especially because there's a difference that carrying a Virus and being actual walking corpse that already died or rather something that actually cheated death itself that now exists something beyond it (like as if death has no longer a inevitable fate where Final Death is now avoidable)

Also for example, Vampires from VtM can leave their victims perfectly healthy whilst SR Vamps can't not to mention I don't think SR Vampires have the same abilities like turning into bats, wolves, mist and such.

Of course I'm not a big fan of the whole "curse" angle either but rather as a Walking Vampire Lord/Lady of the Night who exists beyond death.

Also another thing too a Virus sounds like it's curable too rather than a state of death of itself.
« Last Edit: <01-25-18/0009:42> by NightDrifter »

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #9 on: <01-25-18/0059:52> »
And now we're getting the part where things become really problematic now when you now try to rewrite already established lore just to make sense of the gameworld itself. Carmilla is a Vampire not a Elf (sure is hell she doesn't have elf ears) period, thanks for ruining the legitimacy of the story.

Otherwords this "explanation" can go to the trash bin.
You do know that the story of Carmilla is fictional, right? You are correct that I wasn't describing that story, because I've never read it. I was actually referring to one of the legitimate historical figures that the story of Carmilla was based on, Elizabeth Bathory. The completely real Hungarian aristocrat that purportedly murdered many young women and bathed in their blood so that she could supposedly retain her youth.

And not all elves have pointy ears, they can be Human-looking. Plus I was referring to an actual thing in the Shadwrun lore, there is such a thing as Immortal Elves that survived from the previous age of magic through to the 6th World in which Shadowrun takes place.

Because it's implied that HMHVV is a recent thing?
implied doesn't mean it is, there are a lot of things in the Shadowrun universe that supposedly couldn't have existed pre-awakening, but there is evidence that it did. That's the point I was trying to make.

It is a problem because they are different, Virus Vampires are clearly not Undead that's for sure hence they actually don't function the same way or rather they have don't have the same aesthetic appeal to it and especially because there's a difference that carrying a Virus and being actual walking corpse that already died or rather something that actually cheated death itself that now exists something beyond it (like as if death has no longer a inevitable fate where Final Death is now avoidable)

So, you rambled there a bit, but the general gist that I got was: "Because it being a virus doesn't have the same aesthetic appeal. Vampires should be a walking corpse that died and then somehow cheated death." Is that about right?

For that I have two responses. For one, contracting HMHVV in Shadowrun does nearly kill you. In the case of some of the forms of the Virus, successfully staving off the infection just means that you die instead of turn.

For two, classic Vampires aren't usually known for being the "walking corpse" that you imply. Many vampire stories have vampires passing themselves off as human, and they certainly aren't simply animated rotting corpses. As was mentioned before, the SR lore does feature a concept similar to Zombies, animated corpses. These are usually the result of Spirits possessing the dead bodies.

Also for example, Vampires from VtM can leave their victims perfectly healthy whilst SR Vamps can't not to mention I don't think SR Vampires have the same abilities like turning into bats, wolves, mist and such.

They totally do, or at least they can. Mist Form is a classic ability that Vampires can learn. And certain forms of Vampire can learn Compulsion, Fear, or Influence (classic vampire mind-tricks). Many vampires are magicians and some forms of HMHVV cause the victim to become a magician if they weren't already. That means they can learn spells to allow them to take Animal form (Bat Form, Wolf Form, etc).
Most of the Vampires also gain Immunity to Aging, so they do become "Undead" by that account, they will no longer die from old age.

Finally, because many people don't realize it, the Classic Vampires are a voluntary infection. HMHVV Strain 1, the strain responsible for classic Vampires and their ilk (Nosferatu, Banshee, Wendigo, etc) can only be transmitted by the Infection Power, which is voluntary. Strain 2 and 3, which creates the more monstrous creatures like Loup-Garou, Harvesters, and Ghouls are the ones transmitted by being bitten or by blood contact. This would be the source of legends like Werewolves, and some of the classic Zombie infection stories.

PiXeL01

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2264
  • Sheltering Orks in Osaka
« Reply #10 on: <01-25-18/0200:27> »
The virus is magical, meaning it could awaken at any point in time should there be a mana spike, just like the spike babies.
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Carmody

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1726
« Reply #11 on: <01-25-18/0300:17> »
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here NightDrifter.
As Jack_Spade already told you, it's your game, if all the players around the table agree to get Mascarade like vampires at Shadowrun, so be it! It's your table, your game do whatever you want to enjoy it. We won't be sending runners to punish you for not following the holy SR canon!  ;)
On the other end, and unsurprisingly on the official SR forum, most people here do like the lore the way it is and you're gonna have hard time convincing us that your vision is better. And furthermore I do not understand why you would be trying to convince you, we won't be playing together anyway...
My profile picture is a crop of Alfredo Lopez Jr  Mickey/Wolverine.

ShadowcatX

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
« Reply #12 on: <01-25-18/0909:07> »
You can make anything when you're the one who controls the rules. But in actual Shadowrun, no. All vampires are HMHVV, there are no undead vampires walking around they are all infected. The closest things to undead in shadowrun are possessed corpses or cyberzombies (which is basically a possessed corpse, it just happens to be possessed by the person whose corpse it is).

Well I also had a another thought that why not have both Undead and HMHVV Vampires existing at the same time?

Anyways due to the fact there are "no Undead Vampires" does create problems since if possessed corpses exist then why not Undead Vampires? Especially how do you explain Vampires like Dracula and Carmilla then if they existed in history? Since there has to be Vampires that existed before HMHVV became a thing?

Anyways I just don't like how Vampires are written in Shadowrun even though HMHVV exists but I wish there should be alternatives especially playing as a Vampire in a cyberpunk setting.

HMHVV existed during the fifth age, though rarely. There is an elven nosferatu from the fifth age in the books. However, it is more likely that dracula was just a deluded human. But you seem very set in your ways and wanting people to agree with you, truth is, most of us won't and don't because one of the things we enjoy is that Shadowrun is different and has its own twist on things like vampires. That is part of what sets shadowrun apart from other games.

But as you have been told multiple times, it is your game, do whatever you want. It won't be true to Shadowrun canon, but that doesn't really matter, the canon police aren't going to come arrest you for one violation.

Glyph

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1661
« Reply #13 on: <01-27-18/2352:17> »
If you want supernatural undead vampires, Jack_Spade is right; just get rid of Essence loss/drain.  If they are basically evil spirits inhabiting dead metahuman hosts, maybe you could rule that wards and banishing work on them - maybe that could be where the rumors started about vampires being repelled by holy ground, requiring an invitation to enter a home, and being driven off by holy symbols.

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #14 on: <01-29-18/0003:53> »
As others have said, if you want supernatural undead vampires, there's already plenty of games for that. World of Darkness being the main one, but you can easily make an undead vamp in GURPS, Champions, M&M, BESM, and other such systems. I'm sure D20 Modern has a vamp template, as well. One of the things you have to understand about Shadowrun is that the lore has some very specific ideas about some things, which are tied heavily into the lore. The role of the Infected being due to a virus (and any sightings pre-Awakening being due to mana spikes, immortal elves, or crazy humans) is one of those things. You can't change that without changing a whole lot about the setting.

So, while anything goes at your game, here on the official SR forums, in the RULES section, you've gotten honestly a better reception for this idea than you had any right to expect.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters