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Corporate citizen populations

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« Reply #15 on: <10-28-17/1722:45> »
See I'm not so sure about that specifically because they are corporations and want the highest bottom line they can get. Yes you can rule through fear but history shows those kind of regimes run into problems due to the limitations they put on people. Something that would be made worse in the heavily globalised world of Shadowrun with the most productive and valuable members needing by their very nature to have access to the rest of the world. Doctors, lawyers, scientists and many others all need access to the rest of the world's developments in order to get the most out of them and they'll have interactions with Corp citizens who aren't as valuable. Similarly a happy, productive worker is one who'll put the unpaid overtime in out of a sense of competitiveness and a desire to look good to the bosses anyway whereas an unhappy one will head home as soon as their hours are done.
You are assuming there is such a thing as overtime.
Currently in Thailand, the standard wage is 300 Baht for a 10 hour day. (just over $9 US a day). with no clause for overtime pay
Once again, you are forgetting that SR is not our world. The social safety nets you grew up with a LONG gone. There is no welfare, there is no universal healthcare, there is no old age pension, there is no government run assistance programs. You sink or swim by your own merits and what you can scrape together. Or you work for a Corp and take what they give you.

Some professions will be paid more, some will be paid less. But even today, many lawyers don't make as much as people think they do thanks to the huge amount of Lawyers that are being pumped out of universities today. At UVic (University of Victoria), there are 300 new lawyers graduating every year. And that has been going on for 40 years since my father graduated from there with a Law degree.

In SR, only the very best lawyers would find themselves in Corp Enclaves and "safe". The rest are just other wage slaves doing the work as required.   


Could a corporation issue corporate script, indentured slavery or revoke your citizenship for being unproductive? Yes without a doubt but why would they use such heavy handed techniques when there are other better options.

Because they can. And they know they will get the money back from their employees, while limiting those said employees from buying competitors' merchandise. In short they turn their own employees into guaranteed sales for their products, thus ensuring they ALWAYS have a marketplace advantage over everyone else with a select number of consumers. This is exactly why even today some companies print their own "funny money" that they had out to customers. For example: Canadian Tire. With every purchase at Canadian Tire, you get $0.01 Canadian Tire Dollars for every $1 you spend. the Customer can save up these CTDs and then use them for a purchase later on. They have absolutely NO value to any other business, or bank, but can be spent like real money at any Canadian Tire store in Canada (and ONLY Canadian Tire!). By giving out the CTDs, Canadian Tire is ensuring that some people will always shop there as they are getting a "discount" on things thanks to the CTD program...
And that is not including the real world examples of this very thing from history, as many businesses back in the 1700 to 1800s did this very thing as well. "I sold my soul to the company store" isn't just a line from a song, but actually a historic fact of the gross injustices many businesses did to their employees back in the day. (along with actually chaining employees to their work stations. 80 hour work weeks, enforced housing sleeping 15 to a room, and other barbaric practices that we world find abhorrent today, but were common place back then) 
 
So Johnny the slacker is a corporate citizen and isn't producing anything why take away his citizenship when you can simply balance healthy care and other "services" so that there's an incentive to pay your way. Especially when setting the precedent for "we can take this off you" could backfire by making valuable citizens nervous.
Because he produces nothing, is a drain on the system and sucks up Corporate profits just by being a "drag" on the system. By cutting him loose and revoking his citizenship, they SAVE that money.
Free health care ensures you don't spread a dangerous disease to others. 200 nuyen a month gets you proper treatment, 500 gets you good treatment, 1000 gets you optionals like dental and optical and so on. Unions as said are controlled and guided.
First off: "free Healthcare" isn't FREE! Never has been, never will be. You pay for it in your taxes, which is why countries with "free" healthcare have THE highest personal income taxes in the world! Take Canada, my home country.
Quote
"In 2016, total health expenditure in Canada is expected to reach $228 billion, or $6,299 per person. It is anticipated that, overall, health spending will represent 11% of Canada’s gross domestic product (GDP)."
https://www.cihi.ca/en/health-spending
That's $228 BILLION for a country of under 37 million people.  And is why my Federal income tax rate is 43% of my Income. Not to mention my 18.5% Provincial Income Tax that I owe to the province I live in. AND THEN there is the $175/month Fair Care Health Plan I MUST pay every month with no option to opt out of. I still have to pay 100% of all drug, dental, and Optical costs out of pocket.
So really, what do I get for my 61% income tax paid to the respective governments? Not much since 40,000 citizens (including myself!) in my home town alone do not have a family doctor,  thanks the Doctor shortage across the country. So I say it again, "Free Heathcare is a Myth"
Everyone uses the Nuyen but our Corp has lower costs for Corp produced products vs external ones vs other corporate ones. Say cost to produce + 20/50/75 respectively.
The Nuyen is the standard that ZOGB uses, much like how the US dollar is used today to measure the economic output of every country, even though they do not use US dollars. IT doesn't stop a company from using their own script. And in fact, ALL the big 10 do use their own script for the reasons I listed above.

The very fact their corporate citizenship is so low argues against them pushing their people too far because an indentured mage or worse one who sees their non magical kids/friends being forced into indentured servitude is a mage who's ripe for an extraction target and they'll definately have some interaction with non-corp citizens.

Actually the opposite. The fact the numbers are so slow points to it being a very exclusive club. And the reason for that is that citizens cost money. There has to be a reward/benefit to being a Corporate Citizen, otherwise no one would bother to try to become one. Those benefits are probably the very things you are taking for granted and assuming everyone has. (remember that there was a world wide government collapse in SR, so many things you take for granted are GONE!)
It's probably little things, Like having a roof over your head that isn't falling apart. Electricity on demand, instead of when it rationed to your block. Relative safety of a Corporate Enclave instead of having to dealing with roving street and biker gangs. Access to a Doctor when you need one what offers more then just clinic services. A Pension! Access to food from the Corporate store instead of standing in line for Soy products at the corner store. Hot, clean water!

But of course, all these things cost money. There is the infrastructure that has to be built for all of it. That infrastructure has to be maintained. Which comes out of the Corp's bottom line. The more people you offer these services to, the more it costs to maintain. The more it costs , the more it hurts the Corp Pocket book.

This is one of the reasons why Corporations didn't just take over the world when the governments collapsed one by one. Ruling the world directly hurts profits. Much better to get the Governments to pay for all the expensive stuff like heating, sanitation, water, infrastructure, housing, healthcare, pensions, and the hundreds of other things needed to run a country and just charge the governments to build them through construction companies, and waste removal services. (which are paid for by a Country's citizens through their taxes)


On the other hand if you don't take away citizenship except for crimes against the corporation that can be justified to the sheeple but limit it's awarding to the most valuable, special acquisitions and an occasional lucky lottery winner you get as seen here a much lower number of corporate citizens.

It's also supports by the sins system with a limited vs full corporate sin. Limited would like you said be awarded/removed fairly regularly a mage coming to work for Renraku would probably get limited citizenship for the duration of their employment then have it revoked, but a janitor who was born to full corporate citizenship would have their citizenship for life even if they were constantly bring held up to society as a shameful example of someone who had all the breaks and blew it. Which in itself is an effective method of control why take away their sin when you can socially shame them while simultaneously holding them up as an example of how you "only take away full citizenship if they commit crimes".

Because once again with that citizenship comes certain rights and privileges, which cost money to the Corp at best. Or their Reputation at worst (as for a Corp, a hit to their reputation can cost them MILLIONS, even a short term loss of face.)
For example. They have a Corp Employee that is a total slacker and doesn't produce anything meaningful to the company. Worse still he is a substance abuser. One day this employee is driving to work stoned, loses control of his Car and slams into a bus of schoolkids, killing them all. The Corp is going to take a public relations hit for the actions of this now dead employee, which could cost them millions in lost sales until the tied of anger blows over. Not to mention the lawsuits from the families of the Kids, regardless if they win or not.
Far better in the cost/benefit analysis to cut the underproductive employee loose then continuing to let him drag the company down. 

Just like Today, Citizens expect their Country/Corp to be there for them in rough times, and to protect them from other countries laws and rules when problems break out. They expect their country to look after them. And in some cases feed, house, educate, nurture and support them.
(Whatever happened to:  "Ask not what your country can do you for, but what YOU can do for your Country!"??? That famous line is only 60 years old...)
 
Once again, Corps are not countries. They do not act like countries, they do not think like countries. They are businesses and act like Businesses. If you do not increase the bottom line of a business, you are let go right away. And if you don't increase the bottom line in some measurable, distinct way you will probably never become a Citizen for that Corp, as Citizens have a built in cost to them, which has to be met or exceeded before their is a reason for a Corp to even offer the rewards of Citizenship to you.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Senko

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« Reply #16 on: <10-28-17/2232:56> »
Wow. . . Ok I don't have time to read all that at work I'll take a proper look over it tonight. I'm getting the feeling the difference between our view of this is how much dystopia you want in your game which will just come down to personal taste. For me I tend to consider the corps as coming from 1st world Japan but I'll say no more till I've read your post.

EDIT
Interesting points and some things I didn't know there. However I don't think I'll continue it any further than this edit as it's (a) not the point of this thread and I don't want to derail it more, (b) it's definately one of those he said/she said situations. More importantly its one I actually recognise for once and while I'm happy to keep debating it I really don't think either of us would convince the other to change their views. I think it's at least partly personal taste (or I've not read the novels that show that side of the shadowrun world). I get the feeling you prefer a more sharp dystopia difference than I do. That is you like the wealthy, the exploited and the runners while I prefer to keep my dystopia in the shadows so the world looks great to the majority even it's a lie. Still if I'm wrong and you are happy to keep discussing our views please make a thread or send me a pm and I'll carry this on there
« Last Edit: <10-29-17/0628:35> by Senko »

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« Reply #17 on: <10-29-17/1429:57> »
Well, I do have the advantage over you in the fact that I have played from 1e and have absorbed the lore as it has come out, and I have just spewed out some of it here. And I totally agree that you allowed to put your own spin on the world for your table.

But things like Corp Script are actually a thing in the lore, and that IS the way many corps pay their employees for the reasons I listed. I should also point out that many countries also print their own money. There is the UCAS dollar, the CAS dollar, the Sterling pound, the Aztland Pasco  and other currencies. Back in 3e they even published a conversion rate for the various currencies to the Nuyen. (Shadow Beat I believe was the book)   
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mr. Black

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« Reply #18 on: <10-30-17/1527:13> »
For more Real World examples of Corp Scrip, several cities around the world have issued there own currency.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/55414/7-cities-have-their-own-currencies

A city in Switzerland recently added to the list. Theirs is a border town, and many people cross the border for neccessities, and others come into town for the restaurants and bars. They decided to issue scrip to keep visitors spending money locally.

The legendary Emperor Norton of San Fransisco also issued his own money, which was traded mainly on the Barbary Coast night life district, but was widely accepted throughout the city.

Sascha Morlok

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« Reply #19 on: <10-31-17/0400:33> »
I also always assumed 'Corporate affiliated' also ment people with corporate citizenship, will I also assumed that not every employee is a corporate citizen. Anyway, while my chapter on S-K did not give a exact number of S-K citizens you may can assume there are definitely more than 3 Million S-K citizens.

e.g., Neu-Essen - the full extraterritorial enclave in the south of the today city of Essen, surrounding the S-K Main Arcology - is described as having the same amount of inhabitants as the rest of Essen. Today Essen has a population of ~582,000. Due to the massive increase of population of the "Rhine-Ruhr-Megaplex" in SR (from about 13 Million Today to 25 Million+ since the 50's), we may assume a population of maybe one Million in Essen. About 100,000 already living in the arcology (2074), which we can assume to be all corporate citizens. The remaining population of Neu-Essen may also consists of about 90%+ corporate citizens, as it is described as been a privilege for citizens to been relocated there.

And this is just Neu-Essen. S-K has several other extraterritorial city districts in other parts of Germany (Berlin, Munich,...), not to mention all the other corporate HQs, facilities, arcologies, skyscrapers and so on all over the place. While not as big and shiny as Neu-Essen, I#you may can come up with 3 Million citizens in Germany only. But when you read the chapter in Market Panic you also get the idea, that S-K doesn't work like the other corps, and S-K may be excluded form those "The most corporate citizens/employees of the AAA's"-Lists, as S-K sees itself more as a country and not a corporation. And before you come up with Aztlan - Aztech is cheating.

Digression: Not every "free" healthcare works with tax money. The German system works quite differently, and is still "free" (as in: in general you don't have to pay for your doctor or hospital visits, prescribed meds; except you want to have some special meds or procedures, which is not a "normal" procedure (like cosmetic surgery)). You pay for your health insurance with your paycheck. Every month a certain amount of your pay is automatically removed and payed to your "statutory health insurance", while your employer will also pay the same amount of money for you the your health insurance (so it's a 50/50 deal). In this way your amount is lowered, while the health insurance will get enouth money to pay for the needs the people it insures. Read more -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany
German Freelancer for Pegasus Spiele
Wrote the S-K chapter of Market Panic and Power Plays

Wakshaani

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« Reply #20 on: <10-31-17/0941:14> »
Well, I do have the advantage over you in the fact that I have played from 1e and have absorbed the lore as it has come out, and I have just spewed out some of it here. And I totally agree that you allowed to put your own spin on the world for your table.

But things like Corp Script are actually a thing in the lore, and that IS the way many corps pay their employees for the reasons I listed. I should also point out that many countries also print their own money. There is the UCAS dollar, the CAS dollar, the Sterling pound, the Aztland Pasco  and other currencies. Back in 3e they even published a conversion rate for the various currencies to the Nuyen. (Shadow Beat I believe was the book)

There's a modern list of this in ... Run Faster I think? Shiawase scrip, for instance, has a 1:1 exchange rate and remains the Gold Standard for scrip. S-K had a ratio of having more value than a Nuyen, the only one in such a position, due to its economic strength at the time and as a nod to it being the #1 in the world. MCT meanwhile, had never achieved a 1:1 parity (It was 101 MCT scrip to 100 Nuyen IIRC), a fact which grit their teeth since they'd almost always been larger than Shiawase but never got that level of respect. Now that they're the new #1, this has probably changed.

Otherwise, I'm majorly enjoying all of this conversation. Some really good talk in here! (Oh, and as a comparison, Wal-Mart, currently the largest corporation on Earth by a wide margin? Employs 1.9 million people. This counts subsidiaries  worldwide, office people, accountants, shipping, security, etc etc etc.) Corp citizenship is a perk, and as such it isn't handed out by most corps casually. Executives, of course, but also high level deckers, magicians or all stripes, and your high-end bodyguards/top samurai, and is generally inheritable, so it slowly expands as more kids pop up. Older corps thus have more than the newer ones, but different corps have different attitudes on who gets it. You might see, say, Shiawase hand  out a limited SIN to anyone who's been a loyal worker for 20 years, but only those who notch 40 get full citizenship. These are always major affairs, with ceremonies, and used as PR. Look at where hard work and loyalty gets you! Suzuki-san receives a Wakizashi when he gets a limited SIN, a sign of his nobility and honorable status. Should he make it to full citizenship, he's given a Katana as well, a Daisho pairing that he will pass to his children and which will be kept in the home at a shrine, a sign of a noble family line that has proven its value to the Corporation.

In many ways, you can make a comparison with nobility as a whole .... there are MANY peasants (employees), fewer freemen (Limited SIN), but only a handful of nobles (Full SIN) ... but that's where the prestiege lies. Why would you just hand that out to Joe Datapusher straight out of college? Make 'em earn it. And if they grind themselves to death in 19 years, well hey, you got tons of work out of them and didn't have to hold up your end of the deal. Win-win!

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #21 on: <10-31-17/2047:38> »
To me citizenship implies a certain amount of both rights and responsibilities. If I were extracted *ahem* captured by a foreign power I feel America would make at least a token effort to get me back. Japan would probably not care. Likewise in America, I have certain rights, that non-citizens don't receive.

On the flip side, there are steps I must perform if I wish to several ties to my country. Or, if I sought employment outside of my country I would still be tasked with paying my taxes.

I imagine these are amplified in Shadowrun. Buying or earning citizenship is probably a big goal for a lot of corporate employees and something passed down as a birthright. (I personally doubt all children get citizenship automatically even if one or both of their parents are citizens.) 

Senko

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« Reply #22 on: <10-31-17/2147:02> »
Interesting I've always assumed all kids got it myself which is part of why you had to really earn it or get lucky as part of a PR process (annual lottery for limited SIN).

To continue the above nobility comparison I'd say Sinless are serfs, SINners are peasants, limited Corp sins are baronet's or knights (special perks and privileges but not inherited and valuable enough so some responsibility) while full corporate sins are the full nobility (lots of perks and privileges with fewer responsibilities on average since at this level a higher amount are at the enjoy wealth rather than earning it and as such get a higher level of protection and responsibility from the king/corp).
« Last Edit: <10-31-17/2153:59> by Senko »

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #23 on: <10-31-17/2257:21> »
You are probably correct, but I like viewing it as kind of like stock, once you accumulate X% you can be a full citizen, but if you split it between the kids, poof.

I suppose it could also vary between corps as well.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #24 on: <10-31-17/2339:38> »
Limited SINs don't get passed on to the kids. A full Corporate SIN does (well, as long as the parents remain in good standing. Even if they don't, it'd be retained for a while as leverage. If the runaway doesn't come back, however? The family's probably tossed out to the wolves.)

Shiawase has some 4th generation Corporate SINNers on board, and a handful of the original crew is still around. Most were rendered obsolete under the Yamana Doctrine, but he's gone now. Then again, no one's gotten around to bringing those old guys back in since he left. Hmmm...