[忍]

Does anyone know if Elemental Strike confers the implied AP of a usual elemental attack?

Elemental Strike enhances the damage caused by an unarmed Killing Hands strike by channeling an elemental effect into the attack. Activating this power requires a Simple Action and the effect remains active for (Magic) Combat Turns or until the adept deactivates it with. Free Action or is rendered unconscious. While active, the chosen elemental effect wreathes the hand, foot, or other body part the adept uses to strike. Only one effect can be used at a time and can’t be combined with any other adept striking power except Killing Hands. Each elemental effect must be purchased as a separate power.

Just for reference

[Glonthein]

As I see it, you do gain the AP the element usually has when there is one : -5 for electric damage, -6 for fire based weapons. I don't remember if there is a specific ap for cold damage and acid damage (must be for that last one, but i can"t tell where it is).

[Kiirnodel]

The only problem with that idea is that the ability never states that it gives the attack an extra AP value. It channels the elemental effect into the attack, giving the attack the extra effects caused by that particular element. There are other elemental powers, which do state an AP value, but this isn't one of them.

[Novocrane]

None of the elemental damage types actually come with an AP by default - just special effects.

Acid & Cold get nada. Electricity only has an expected AP by virtue of every weapon/ammo/mod giving it the same or similar AP. Even the listed Fire AP isn't for the initial attack, but for the subsequent catching fire and fire damage.

[Kincaid]

My understanding is that it's secondary effects only, no boost to AP.  Looking at things from a mechanical perspective, the cost of AP for a physad is already benchmarked at .25PP/1 AP, so having electric fists give you -5 plus secondary effects for .5 PP doesn't make sense.

Now that I've typed that, I need to go brainstorm about acid fists for a bit.  The general knock on acid effects is that magic acid disappears after it's summoned into existence, but with a continuous power like Elemental Strike...

[Rooks]

dont forget the -5 to init for lightining

[Glonthein]

Kincaid : Except that the power you are talking about won't add with elemental strike, so you wouldn't be able to stack those :
Street grimoire p 170 : "Only one effect can be used at a time and can’t be combined with any other adept striking power except Killing Hands"
And when you take that into account, I do think it suddenly makes sense to consider the AP bonus.

[Kiirnodel]

Let's set them at equal costs (Power Point-wise), so .5 each: Elemental Strike vs Penetrating Strike 2.

Say we pick Electricity. Glonthein, you're suggesting for the same costs a character is choosing between getting the elemental effects (-5 init, -1 on all actions for net hits in turns) AND a -5 AP vs just -2 AP?

In what way is that an even trade? Just because the powers can't be used at the same time doesn't mean that the existence of Penetrating Strike isn't sound reasoning for AP not being apart of the Elemental Strike bonuses.

[Glonthein]

Elemental Strike isn't a permanent bonus. You have to spend a simple action using it - meaning no attack during that pass, which can sometimes be a problem. Now this is a personal feeling, but when 90% of the combat I've had in play lasted less than 2 turns, having a single pass not attacking can really mean life or death, depending on the situation. What I'm saying is this isn't a power that can really be used at every fight, so all in all having the AP bonus isn't that broken. Then again, this is what GMs I'm playing with have ruled for all adept's elemental powers, I'm mostly repeating the interpretation that has been done at my table. I will at least admit that the text is ambiguous enough that both interpretations can be done.

[Reaver]

I have seen the straight argument that when you take Elemental strike, you choose an elemental and thus gain those effects which are:

Core Book. Page 170
Along with the elemental forces
things like gravity (or at least the stop at the bottom),
drowning, and general exhaustion can add to the pain
and suffering. All of these different damages have their
own rules quirks, detailed below.
Elemental Damage
This is damage caused by non-kinetic sources, like acid,
fire, etc. Most of the time you’d look to magic for this
sort of damage, but some mundane weapons and attacks
can deliver added elemental effects.
Acid Damage
Acid damage is Physical. In addition to its normal damage,
it also reduces the rating of any Armor it hits by 1.
If the acid isn’t removed from the target (by washing it
off, or because the acid is from a spell and evaporates
into mana after the spell ends), then the acid continues
to burn. Each Combat Turn the base DV of the acid is
decreased by 1 and damage is applied again. The acid
also continues to burn through armor reducing the target’s
Armor rating by 1 until the acid is removed, neutralized,
or loses all its base DV. The Armor reduction
should be applied to worn Armor first but could be applied
to Armor accessories (+Armor items) if the gamemaster
allows.
At the gamemaster’s discretion, acid can also create
Light Smoke conditions in an area around the target.
Cold Damage
Cold is just the absence of heat, but it hurts when too
much heat is absent, and calling cold “absent heat”
doesn’t make it any less painful. Cold damage is Physical.
Additionally, cold damage can make armor brittle, liquids
freeze, lubricants gum up, etc. Make a simple Armor Test
for anything directly hit. If the armor gets no hits, it breaks
and cannot be used as armor. It can be repaired with the
Building & Repairing rules, p. 145. In the case of a glitch,
it’s destroyed irreparably. With a critical glitch the armor
breaks irreparably in a dangerous way.
Electricity Damage
A wide variety of nonlethal weapons are designed to
incapacitate targets with electrical shock attacks, including
stun batons, tasers, cyberware shock hands,
and similar electrically charged weapons. These weapons
rely on a contact discharge of electricity rather than
kinetic energy. Spells and critter powers such as Lightning
Bolt and Energy Aura cause similar effects.
Electrical damage is treated as Stun or Physical
damage depending on the source and/or target. The
Non-conductivity armor upgrade (p. 438) adds its full
rating to the Armor value. The gamemaster can also decide
which (if any) other factors may modify the target’s
damage, such as extra conductivity for a character covered
in water.
An Electricity attack that does damage can stun and
incapacitate the target as well, though if there is no
damage, there is no secondary effect at all.
Secondary effects for characters injured by Electricity
damage include a –1 dice pool penalty on all actions
and Defense Tests, but not Damage Resistance Tests,
for 1 Combat Turn and an immediate Initiative Score reduction
of 5. The dice pool penalty and Initiative Score
reduction do not accumulate with multiple attacks, but
the length of the penalty is extended by 1 Combat Turn
for each successful damaging attack while a character
is affected. If the character’s Initiative Score is reduced
to 0 or below, they lose their last action. If they have no
Initiative Score left the reduction comes on the start of
the next Combat Turn.
Electronic equipment and drones can also be affected
by Electricity damage. They never suffer Stun damage
so Electricity damage is Physical when used against
electronics and drones. They resist damage as usual and
suffer a secondary effect if they take even a single box
of damage.
The secondary effect for electronics and drones
damaged by Electricity damage is shorting out or overloading.
In game terms this is reflected as secondary
Matrix damage equal to half the Physical damage
rounded down.
Vehicles can be damaged by Electricity attacks but do
not suffer any secondary effects. Specific systems of vehicles
can be targeted by a Called Shots (p. 195).
Fire Damage
Fire damage is Physical. It can also make things catch
fire. To determine if something catches fire, roll Armor
Value + Fire Resistance – Fire AP (see Fire Armor Piercing
Ratings table, below). The threshold on this test is
the net hits rolled on the fire-based attack. If the item
succeeds, it is not on fire (for now). Armor accessories
are excluded from the test but the gamemaster may require
them to make their own test.
When something catches fire, the fire has an initial
Damage Value of 3. This damage is caused at the end of
each Combat Turn, and the DV increases by 1 at the start
of each subsequent Combat Turn until the item is completely
destroyed or the fire is put out. You can fight the
fire a number of ways (water, smothering, etc.), making
an Agility + Intuition Test and reducing the fire’s DV by
1 for each hit. Remember, as long as the fire is burning
it can ignite any nearby flammables, including furniture,
vehicles, foliage, and elves.

type of fire                       ap
Open Flame                    –2
Fire-based spells            spell Force
Flame-based weapon     –6

and that's it.

remember, we are talking about adept POWERS, not spells. Adepts follow slightly different rules for everything, such as the cap on their individual powers, the total number of powers they can ever have, and generally not "drain" as mages do for spells and spell created effects...

which doesn't make things too clear about how some of these things work or last... Part of that is answered in the durations. A fireball, or Acid wave has a duration of instant. many adept powers are sustained for combat turns! - which makes some readings of the rules for acid into VERY effective as a high magic adept potentially removes his MAGIC rating from the armor value of the target, depending on the combat turn the target was hit...


<And thus the stupidly high initiated adept uses his acid fist to punch a tank..... And 2 minutes later, the tank has 0 armor!>

Don't know if that is helpful or not.

[Kiirnodel]

Yeah, as Reaver points out, the list of Elemental effects never mentions an AP value, with the exception of Fire. And Fire only mentions that the test to resist catching on fire applies the "Fire AP" as a penalty also. Even so, elemental strike doesn't have a Force and it isn't a "fire-based weapon" (which would be referring to things like flamethrowers).

Personally, I interpret the power as applying this:

Acid: -1 Armor for each hit.
Cold: Armor might break (single hit on a Simple Armor Test avoids)
Electricity: -5 Initiative, -1 on actions for 1 Combat Turn.
Fire: Might catch on fire (Armor must make net hits from attack to avoid)
Water: Target can get knocked down (Agility test to reduce original damage below Physical Limit)

* A few notes, I make note that Acid only reduces the Armor by 1, not a progressive -1 every combat turn. I say this because the assumption of the Acid damage seems like it is intended to be something like throwing a vial of acid at somebody, the Acid continues to eat away at the surface. When it is a physical attack, you aren't leaving the "Acid" on the target, so it doesn't remain to eat away the armor. Ant Spirits (SG pg 95), have a similar effect, they are considered to have their attacks be considered Acid.
Fire, likewise makes mention of a "Fire AP" I would probably be willing to apply the Adept's Magic as the "Force" for this purpose, or else just use a flat -2 for open flame level fire.