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Author Topic: Are Augmentations too weak?  (Read 1020 times)

FancyDerek

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #15 on: (20:37:37/03-17-17) »
Awakened vs mundane is a separate argument from the posted subject.

Awakened is a more powerful choice than mundane- there's no need to rehash it.

Improving augmentation or making them cheaper just means awakened individuals have more of a reason to sacrifice some MR to get some.

There are plenty of augmentations that are mechanically weak vs other choices.
But that's ok- not every augmentation should be equal.
Much like a smartgun system is mechanically stronger choice in most cases than a laser sight.
Doesn't mean we got to somehow improve the laser sight to make it the same as smartlink.

Some augmentations are overpriced, others underpriced.
Beats cost 4-5 times the equivalent skullcandy headset with less than a 1% difference in audio quality.
Are the Beats overpriced or the Skullcandy underpriced- who knows?
So why be surprised that cost and effectiveness aren't always a direct correlation in SR just as they are not in real life.
I don't worry about the price of any individual item since it's the same for everybody.





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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #16 on: (00:32:04/03-18-17) »
That, and I think you're reading too much into things Reshy.


Much of this Tech was not developed for the reasons Runners use it for. Cyber Limbs originally for those who had suffered an accident, and not as some new Fad or Designer Toy.... And most certainly NOT the "Hey, a cyber arm crushes skulls" crowd........ Although the latter probably make up a sizable percentage of the "Limb enhancement" market.

This is a "no-brainer" option for insurance companies, Mega Corps, and everyone who can afford it! Paying out for a new limb to replace a limb lost in an accident is going to be a LOT cheaper then the Disability payments. OR the lost income if you don't have insurance, which means banks would be willing to float you a loan for. Heck, some Governments may even pay for the surgery and limb, just to keep you off welfare! -IF that country still has welfare. (Of course, you need a SIN for these things...)

And some shit is just for those insane, rich, spoilt assholes of the world that just NEED a 20 karat gold IPhone with diamond and emerald edging.... Like your geneware.

Of course, when we are talking about genes... we ARE talking about a inheritable trait....
Hmmmm.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #17 on: (09:02:03/03-18-17) »
Genetic enhancements are definitely heritable. Genetic therapy replaces harmful genes with normal ones, no reason that can't be inherited, and the ethnicity-changing one is explicitly inheritable. The other genewares are set to be recessive, so you'd not only have to have both parents have the geneware for it to be passed onto the kid, but the mother would've needed to have it installed before she was born, as the ova aren't affected by later genetic alterations. Unless the father gets the geneware and it mutates into a dominant gene (or the corps slipped him a dominant version for nefarious reasons of their own), in which case he could pass it on to any offspring he has with anyone.
« Last Edit: (09:39:04/03-18-17) by Ghost Rigger »

Adamo1618

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #18 on: (09:17:48/03-18-17) »
Not really, I can get a MAG 6 adept with C magic.
Still paying with something else, both magic and two points of Edge in this case.
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Might I direct you to the Missions FAQ page 19?

Quote from: Reshy
Is there a Cash for Karma (or Karma for Cash) option?
Yes! Once between each Missions adventure you may choose to Work for The Man or Work for The People.
If you are Working for the Man, you can trade 1 Karma for 2,000 nuyen. This represents your character going out and doing the dirty, sleazy, or simply boring grunt work for a company or corporation. It pays well, but eats away at your soul.
If you Work for the People, you can trade 2,000 nuyen for 1 Karma. This represents you going out and doing some pro-bono runner work, helping out at a local soup kitchen, or doing some volunteer work. It costs you a little something, but you feel better about yourself afterward.
You're right, I was wrong.

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They don't have to play by the rules by design.
No-one has to. But most of the GMs I've had prefer to do so. And so do the wealthy players.
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Reshy

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #19 on: (15:18:48/03-23-17) »
Awakened vs mundane is a separate argument from the posted subject.

Awakened is a more powerful choice than mundane- there's no need to rehash it.

Improving augmentation or making them cheaper just means awakened individuals have more of a reason to sacrifice some MR to get some.

Combine that with a mandatory increase in essence costs for ware on awakened characters versus non-awakened characters and it'll balance out more or less.


There are plenty of augmentations that are mechanically weak vs other choices.
But that's ok- not every augmentation should be equal.
Much like a smartgun system is mechanically stronger choice in most cases than a laser sight.
Doesn't mean we got to somehow improve the laser sight to make it the same as smartlink.

Neither costs an irreplaceable resource though.  You can always get more Nuyen, and if you want just swap the two out as needed. 


Some augmentations are overpriced, others underpriced.
Beats cost 4-5 times the equivalent skullcandy headset with less than a 1% difference in audio quality.
Are the Beats overpriced or the Skullcandy underpriced- who knows?
So why be surprised that cost and effectiveness aren't always a direct correlation in SR just as they are not in real life.
I don't worry about the price of any individual item since it's the same for everybody.

In the shadowrun fluff Wired Reflexes are supposed to be a low-impact version of move by wire that's also cheaper.  However, neither are reflected in game, Wired Reflexes costs the same essence at the highest rating, provides a weaker effect, and lacks about another .6 essence in fringe benefits.  On top of it, it costs more to boot.  This is not only mechanically broken, but it doesn't fit the fluff of the shadowrun lore at all.



Much of this Tech was not developed for the reasons Runners use it for. Cyber Limbs originally for those who had suffered an accident, and not as some new Fad or Designer Toy.... And most certainly NOT the "Hey, a cyber arm crushes skulls" crowd........ Although the latter probably make up a sizable percentage of the "Limb enhancement" market.

Oh hey, think I don't already know that?  Because I do.... the problem is that the cyberware is supposed to be cheap, hence why it's essence hungry.  The problem is that it's not cheap, necessitating that any mundane character in shadowrun be either a rich guy or magic, which I feel flies in the face of the corporate dystopia when every mundane ever seems to be wealthy.


This is a "no-brainer" option for insurance companies, Mega Corps, and everyone who can afford it! Paying out for a new limb to replace a limb lost in an accident is going to be a LOT cheaper then the Disability payments. OR the lost income if you don't have insurance, which means banks would be willing to float you a loan for. Heck, some Governments may even pay for the surgery and limb, just to keep you off welfare! -IF that country still has welfare. (Of course, you need a SIN for these things...)

I'm aware, the problem is that the price of cyberware is far higher then it should be, especially when yous tart to compare it to bioware which is many times less essence hungry.


And some shit is just for those insane, rich, spoilt assholes of the world that just NEED a 20 karat gold IPhone with diamond and emerald edging.... Like your geneware.

Why develop a technology for a fringe market that will likely never be able to recoup the costs of research and development?  Doesn't make sense to me, maybe it does when you run a AAA megacorp but ideally you want your products to be affordable so you can make nuyen.


Of course, when we are talking about genes... we ARE talking about a inheritable trait....
Hmmmm.

Yeah about that, why is "Genesculpted" not a trait by now?  Prototype transhuman makes genetech sound like something developed literally yesterday and in it's early alpha phase, not a commercial good.  Again that comes down to the fluff not making sense with itself.  I mean theoretically you'd probably have genesculpting as the big thing because it can be done in such a way that it has zero impact on essence.  However, the game doesn't seem to acknowledge that fact or pretend it's even a possibility. 

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #20 on: (17:38:38/03-23-17) »
Neither costs an irreplaceable resource though.  You can always get more Nuyen, and if you want just swap the two out as needed.
You can do that with 'ware too. That's what essence holes are for.

Quote
In the shadowrun fluff Wired Reflexes are supposed to be a low-impact version of move by wire that's also cheaper.  However, neither are reflected in game, Wired Reflexes costs the same essence at the highest rating, provides a weaker effect, and lacks about another .6 essence in fringe benefits.  On top of it, it costs more to boot.  This is not only mechanically broken, but it doesn't fit the fluff of the shadowrun lore at all.
If the effects of MBW systems described in fluff showed up in the mechanics then there would be a laundry list of reasons to take a WR system over a MBW system, most of which could be traced to the root cause of "your entire body is in a constant state of seizure". As it stands, there are still reasons to take a WR system over a MWB system:
  • A MWB system kills your social limit, which isn't going to be too high to begin with for a streetsam. This sounds trivial until you remember that lying, intimidation and getting laid are all social skills.
  • Lower nuyen cost at rating 1.
  • Lower essence cost at ratings 1 and 2.
  • Lower availability rating.
  • WR stacks with reflex enhancers, MBW does not.
  • Yeah, you get a free skillwire with MWB, but you still need to shell out for for activesofts and a skilljack to get any use out of it. Have you seen how disgustingly expensive those things are?
  • A MWB system doesn't always win out over a WR system.
  • You're really only getting it because you can't afford a Synaptic Booster. And let's face it, by the time you can afford either WR3 or MBW3, a synaptic booster 3 isn't exactly out of your price range either.

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Oh hey, think I don't already know that?  Because I do.... the problem is that the cyberware is supposed to be cheap, hence why it's essence hungry.  The problem is that it's not cheap, necessitating that any mundane character in shadowrun be either a rich guy or magic, which I feel flies in the face of the corporate dystopia when every mundane ever seems to be wealthy.
They're not wealthy, though. The vast majority of streetsams are either ex-military, ex-cop, ex-mercenary, ex-syndicate, ex-corpsec or a combination of the above and got all their 'ware from their previous employers. Yeah, some of the fluff excerpts try to push the idea of self-made streetsams, but deep down we all know it's bullshit.

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I'm aware, the problem is that the price of cyberware is far higher then it should be, especially when yous tart to compare it to bioware which is many times less essence hungry.
Cyberware is much cheaper than bioware for its augmentation bonuses. Is that cheapness in proportion to the difference in Essence loss between cyberware and bioware? No, but that's kind of the point. The best, most cost-effective option is out of your price range, all the options aren't balanced and life is only fair in advertisements. Why? Because it's a dystopia.

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Why develop a technology for a fringe market that will likely never be able to recoup the costs of research and development?  Doesn't make sense to me, maybe it does when you run a AAA megacorp but ideally you want your products to be affordable so you can make nuyen.
You're looking at it backwards. Genetics are too complicated to research a specific thing on demand. You can push research towards a certain end goal, but that's no guarantee you'll get what you want. On the other hand, research can turn up things you weren't looking for and/or didn't expect to find at all, and even immediately fruitless research can open doors to new opportunities. The corps are always trying to hit the jackpot with their genetics research, but that's rarely what they get and they still have to make money with what they do find.

Are 'wares more expensive than they should be? Maybe, but so are heavy weapons.
« Last Edit: (17:43:03/03-23-17) by Ghost Rigger »

Novocrane

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #21 on: (19:49:18/03-23-17) »
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The problem is that it's not cheap, necessitating that any mundane character in shadowrun be either a rich guy or magic
Quote
Yeah, some of the fluff excerpts try to push the idea of self-made streetsams, but deep down we all know it's bullshit.
While somewhat true, it ignores the fact that paying in cold, hard credsticks is a chumps game when your best feature is not your finances, but what you can do. Get favours working for you. Do jobs for people to whom augmentation as part of the job payment is less valuable than the black market price in nuyen, and you're good.

Quote
A MWB system kills your social limit, which isn't going to be too high to begin with for a streetsam. This sounds trivial until you remember that lying, intimidation and getting laid are all social skills.
Dice and limits don't change whether you can lie or intimidate someone as a 6 foot tall killing machine. They do change how well you can control the outcome.

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #22 on: (20:23:14/03-23-17) »
I mean, the average toddler has a social limit of 3. Do you really want to be the guy who can't lie as well as a toddler?

Novocrane

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #23 on: (20:25:24/03-23-17) »
There's rules for creating toddlers, now?

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #24 on: (20:40:47/03-23-17) »
Officially, no, but knowing that the average adult has [metatype baseline+2] in every stat, I've always assumed that the average child has [metatype baseline+1] in every stat while average toddlers have [metatype baseline] for every stat. Though, now that I think about it, this assumption of mine would have hilarious implications for young orks and trolls...

Wakshaani

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #25 on: (08:54:12/03-25-17) »
Well, here's a question for you or, rather, a couple of examples followed by a question.

If It costs 20 Karma (40,000 Nuyen) to go from a Strength 3 to a 4,
and it costs 30 Karma (60,000 Nuyen) to go from Strength 5 to 6,
and it costs 40 Karma (80,000 Nuyen) to go from Strength 7 to 8 (assuming your Metatype allows that!)

Then how much Nuyen (Karma) should it cost for a +1 bonus to your strength that also costs you 0.5 Essence?

Should the discount be 5%? 10%? Half price? How much is the Essence loss worth and how do you price it where it's fitting for both a Strength 1 character who wants to overcome a crippling weakness and for a Strength 10 Troll that wants to punch through trucks?

This is one of the simpler considerations, a pure stat mod, away from all the other corner cases and unique gear and something I had to sit down and chew for a while, with other considerations like "How useful is this stat" and "how does this fit in with the world ... new tech should be more expensive than old in theory, but does that impact game balance?"

So, and this is a genuine question, how would *you* price that piece of 'ware? What about a  bioware version that was harder to detect and cost only 0.2 Essence? Obviously either should be cheaper than the pure Karma/Nuyen cost of a stat boost, but how much?

Give it a spin, I'm curious to see what you'll come up with.

The Bald Man

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #26 on: (14:53:25/03-25-17) »
Right there...the question I have been pondering: What is the cash value (or Karma value) of a point of essence?
We know that 1 karma = 2,000.  We need that other piece of info. 

Rooks

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #27 on: (23:08:03/03-25-17) »
Right there...the question I have been pondering: What is the cash value (or Karma value) of a point of essence?
We know that 1 karma = 2,000.  We need that other piece of info.
190k

Reaver

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #28 on: (23:10:13/03-25-17) »
Right there...the question I have been pondering: What is the cash value (or Karma value) of a point of essence?
We know that 1 karma = 2,000.  We need that other piece of info.
190k

so... that means smartlinks are dirt cheap!
and eyeware...

and a lot of other ware!
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Wakshaani

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Re: Are Augmentations too weak?
« Reply #29 on: (00:14:47/03-26-17) »
Right there...the question I have been pondering: What is the cash value (or Karma value) of a point of essence?
We know that 1 karma = 2,000.  We need that other piece of info.

That's a very interesting discussion and one that was had during the 5th ed work. One side was of the opinion that Essence was essentially worthless and that the then-prices were a massive steal. Another side was that Essence was precious and the then-costs should be reduced to take that into account. I won't name names or say which side won, but, I will say that I'd not be opposed to seeing y'all hash it out a bit.

Again, using the above example (+1 Strength for 0.5 Essence, which is half of Muscle Augmentation), what costs do you think are fair for that. How much value do you put on Essence? What level of Karma/Nuyen do you choose to set the price against and how big of a reduction do you give it based on that Essence loss?

It's a surprisingly complicated problem for such a simple adjustment, but threading this kind of thing is exactly what you do as game designers and, keep in mind, fellow creators may agree, or disagree, with you, and you'll need to present your case at the end of the day to get the opportunity to write that section and define the cots for the span of the edition. You'll want to bring your A-game, but you also don't want to come so hard that you burn bridges or cause lasting damage in intra-team relations. Considering that every single writer in the pool started as a fan, and many of you have expressed an interest in stepping into the role at some point, here's you a great chance to make an impression. I personally went off some of what existed before, the level of cost in 5E, and then invented as many new bits of cyber as had previously existed, so I did these calculations a TON, modifying things up or down, with some later modified by those at a higher pay grade for when my thoughts didn't quite match up with playtesting or design philosophy. (Which, by the by, I'm totally fine with. That's what playtesting is *for*!)

So, here ya go. what would *you* charge for it?

 

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