[Bushw4cker]

I have new player in my campaign that is playing an Astral Space combat specialist. He has a Katana Weapon Focus. Can martial arts be used in Astral Space with a weapon focus? Maneuvers?

[Rosa]

When fighting in Astral space, I would say, no, because astral combat is mental, so you don't actually use your physical maneuvers.

When fighting a materialized astral entity, sure, because then you can use your physical blade skill or other physical combat skill.

That doesn't mean though that your player won't visualize him/her self as using those maneuvers when fighting in Astral space, but doing so would be a mental exercise in order to make sense of the astral input, which can be done in many many ways.

[Kincaid]

I'd also say no but I'd allow more latitude on certain things in the astral.  For example, iaijutsu is handy since it allows non-adepts to Quick Draw a blade in the meat world.  I'll simply handwave how quickly you can think of having your katana in your astral hand.

[Bushw4cker]

You can use Full Defense in Astral Space, right?

What about Two Weapon Fighting. Could an Astrally Projecting Mage fight with two weapon foci, one in each hand?

My initial reaction when question about using Martial Arts in Astral Space, was no as well, but the more I think about it, I cannot think of any good reason to not allow it, and there is nothing in Run & Gun that says Martial Art Maneuvers can't be used in Astral Space. I have mental picture of Astral Space battle looking like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Big Trouble in Little China where the two guys are fighting mid air.  Obviously there are a lot Maneuvers that would be impossible in Astral Space, but things like Counter-strike...

One of the Specializations for Astral Combat is Specific Weapon Foci. The way I imagine it.. sure you're good fighting with a sword and you can take on a group of street punks, but fighting in Astral Space you have to relearn everything, because now you can fly and move at the speed of thought.

[Rosa]

If you wish to expand and embellish Astral combat go for it, but this is house rule stuff then, I do not believe the rules as they are support your interpretation, but it's your game so if it fits your game add it.

[Senko]

On the other hand I'd be inclined to say yes as you're throwing a punch and there are martial arts moves to hurt spirits in the real world. However you'd still have the stat swap so you might be going from (can't remember which tracks to which off hand) a 5 strength punch to a 2 logic punch.

[Rosa]

There is a specific Astral combat skill for the sole reason that Astral combat in astral space is not something you can do with other combat skills, as they clearly say it requires very different abilities and attributes than physical combat. CRB pg 142.

If they had intended for maneuvers to be used with Astral combat in astral space it would have been mentioned in run and gun likely with its own specific maneuvers. That being said house ruling it so is always an option.

[Tym Jalynsfein]

Yet an Astrally Perceiving entity can use their Physical Martial Abilities to fight an Entirely Astral Opponent, completely ignoring the Astral Combat Skill entirely. So, I would say that such a character could indeed use his martial arts against an entirely Astral Opponent, provided he can actually perceive and interact with said opponent.   

[Senko]

I agree with Tym, sure the stat's shift but the manoeuvres should still be usable.

[Rosa]

Yet an Astrally Perceiving entity can use their Physical Martial Abilities to fight an Entirely Astral Opponent, completely ignoring the Astral Combat Skill entirely. So, I would say that such a character could indeed use his martial arts against an entirely Astral Opponent, provided he can actually perceive and interact with said opponent.   

Except the title of this thread specifies we are talking about astral combat IN astral space, if the OP meant can you do it against an astral opponent when you yourself aren't in astral space then yes it's an entire different matter as I already said in the beginning of the thread, but the question was specifically "can you do it in astral space? " In which case the answer is no you can't  unless you house rule it.

[Bushw4cker]

What you can do in Astral Space...

FULL DEFENSE -Everyone agrees that you can go Full Defense in Astral Space, Right?

PARRY/BLOCK - I could see argument against allowing Block, but being able to Parry with a Weapon Focus in Astral Space makes sense to me.

DODGE - Can't see why you wouldn't be able to Dodge in Astral Space..

COUNTER-STRIKE/RIPOSTE  -Again, see no reason why you wouldn't be able to do perform these actions in Astral Space.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING MANEUVERS - I think it would be really hard to argue why this wouldn't be allowed.

[Senko]

The problem is Bushw4ker most of those you state "can't see a reason why you cant x" and that's how I at least see these moves. If you can go full defense why can't you dodge, if you can dodge why can't you counter strike, if you can counter strike why can't you clinch/haymaker/called shot. You see the issue I hope? It may just be my exposure to astral space growing up was tv shows/movies/books where it was an astral representation of your body/ideal body usually connected by a silver cord to your actual one. Now if your talking about some weird amorphos blob type astral form then I can see not allowing things like kick but generally my impression in shadowrun has been the same. Your astral body is a match for your actual body only with mental stats replacing physical ones and in that situation I just can't see you not being able to apply martial arts moves.

[Rosa]

What you can do in Astral Space...

FULL DEFENSE -Everyone agrees that you can go Full Defense in Astral Space, Right?

PARRY/BLOCK - I could see argument against allowing Block, but being able to Parry with a Weapon Focus in Astral Space makes sense to me.

DODGE - Can't see why you wouldn't be able to Dodge in Astral Space..

COUNTER-STRIKE/RIPOSTE  -Again, see no reason why you wouldn't be able to do perform these actions in Astral Space.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING MANEUVERS - I think it would be really hard to argue why this wouldn't be allowed.

The problem here stems partially from the fact that 5th edition as usual isn't very clear and perhaps actually contradicts itself.

Going purely by the skill description text for the astral combat skill,  the answers would be. ..
Yes
Yes to the parry option, possibly also block
Yes
No
No

But if you go by the description of astral combat later in the book the answers become more. .....
Yes
Yes
Yes
Hmmm maybe it's definitely open to interpretation
Hmmm maybe again open to interpretation

So just exercise your GM fiat and say "that's how it is in MY game ", which in the end is all that matters, I doubt we will reach any full consensus here.

[Senko]

What you can do in Astral Space...

FULL DEFENSE -Everyone agrees that you can go Full Defense in Astral Space, Right?

PARRY/BLOCK - I could see argument against allowing Block, but being able to Parry with a Weapon Focus in Astral Space makes sense to me.

DODGE - Can't see why you wouldn't be able to Dodge in Astral Space..

COUNTER-STRIKE/RIPOSTE  -Again, see no reason why you wouldn't be able to do perform these actions in Astral Space.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING MANEUVERS - I think it would be really hard to argue why this wouldn't be allowed.

The problem here stems partially from the fact that 5th edition as usual isn't very clear and perhaps actually contradicts itself.

Going purely by the skill description text for the astral combat skill,  the answers would be. ..
Yes
Yes to the parry option, possibly also block
Yes
No
No

But if you go by the description of astral combat later in the book the answers become more. .....
Yes
Yes
Yes
Hmmm maybe it's definitely open to interpretation
Hmmm maybe again open to interpretation

So just exercise your GM fiat and say "that's how it is in MY game ", which in the end is all that matters, I doubt we will reach any full consensus here.

I agree on those points, sadly in the case if the 5th ed clarity issue.

[Stoneglobe]

And just throw even more confusion into the mix.

Where does a martial art, or any other combat maneuver for that matter, originate. Does it start with the physical or does it start with the mental?

If on any level the process includes a mental one, and everything we do involves some level of mental activity  , then why should I not be able to use it in astral space. Now granted I would still have to use the Astral Combat skill as my base skill but the martial art maneuvers and/or specialisms could definitely then be applied to this, even though the specialism is for one of the close combat skills.

I do the same thing with the martial arts and specialisms in the physical world. eg I have the martial art Jujitsu and have taken that as my specialism in unarmed combat. I also have the maneuver clinch. In my first attack I go for the clinch. But due to the vagaries/idiosyncrasies of rules and writers clinch is a gymnastics test and not an unarmed combat test (this is whole other argument I won't get into right now) so I shouldn't get my specialism unless I also specialised in clinch for gymnastics. I play it that you still get your specialism. You've already had to pay 14 - 19 points of karma (+ whatever level of unarmed and gymnastics you've bought) to get jujitsu, clinch and specialise which is a lot for being able to do one maneuver so why penalise you even further. That's cost you more than a 1st initiation or submersion which gives you a whole lot more in my opinion for less karma (again an argument for another day).

Back to the original question. Ignoring my do martial arts have a mental aspect that can be carried over into astral space, I believe if you've paid karma for the privilege of doing something you should be able to then use it in any circumstance where it could be applicable.