Author Topic: Mage/Shaman death and spirits  (Read 318 times)

Styryx

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Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« on: (10:43:19/03-03-17) »
Question: In Shadowrun 5e, if a Mage or Shaman dies during combat, what happens to any spirits he has summoned, meaning would they just go back to the astral plane immediately or would they complete their given task(s)?  And would it be different for bound and unbound spirits?

The Bald Man

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #1 on: (22:09:59/03-11-17) »
I hope someone who knows more than I do speaks up.
I would guess: Summoned spirits just go and bound spirits complete the task (within reason). 

I think of it as having a friend help you move vs hiring professional movers.  When my friend helps me move if I stop, they stop.  Professional movers get the job done regardless of my ongoing involvement. 

Rosa

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #2 on: (01:25:42/03-12-17) »
Well back in 4th edition it was clearly written that if a magician was knocked unconscious or was killed the spirits he or she had summoned would become uncontrolled. Spirits below force 6 would generally bugger off back to their metaplanes, spirits of force 6 or above however would have a chance to go free with bound spirits having a better chance than unbound.

As far as I can tell that is still the case according to Street Grimoire page 202-203. Also I'm pretty sure that bound spirits do not continue their last command, they stop what they're doing and either go free or go home.

Kiirnodel

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #3 on: (03:38:13/03-12-17) »
Rosa, in 4th they clearly defined a Spirit becoming uncontrolled if the magician is knocked out during the Binding Test. That and if they Critical Glitch the binding were the times where they explicitly say that the spirit becomes uncontrolled.

They don't really define what causes a spirit to be "uncontrolled" in 5th edition, they don't mention it at all in the Binding section, although I think the same general rule works pretty well, considering. I also think a spirit is considered uncontrolled during that brief period when they have been banished to remove all of their services owed (although most spirits just try to go home at that point). And their magician's death also seems like a good time to consider them uncontrolled as well.

The rules on page 202-203 of Street Grimoire give a good set of rules for seeing if an uncontrolled spirit goes free. Basically, it is an Edge Test, threshold 3, which unbound spirits have a -4 penalty on. Since Spirits have an Edge of half Force, this means that only very powerful spirits are at all likely to become Free. Bound Spirits would need to be at least Force 6 to have a slim chance, and unbound go all the way up to Force 14 before they have any real chance.

Rosa

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #4 on: (18:24:31/03-12-17) »
Rosa, in 4th they clearly defined a Spirit becoming uncontrolled if the magician is knocked out during the Binding Test. That and if they Critical Glitch the binding were the times where they explicitly say that the spirit becomes uncontrolled.

They don't really define what causes a spirit to be "uncontrolled" in 5th edition, they don't mention it at all in the Binding section, although I think the same general rule works pretty well, considering. I also think a spirit is considered uncontrolled during that brief period when they have been banished to remove all of their services owed (although most spirits just try to go home at that point). And their magician's death also seems like a good time to consider them uncontrolled as well.

The rules on page 202-203 of Street Grimoire give a good set of rules for seeing if an uncontrolled spirit goes free. Basically, it is an Edge Test, threshold 3, which unbound spirits have a -4 penalty on. Since Spirits have an Edge of half Force, this means that only very powerful spirits are at all likely to become Free. Bound Spirits would need to be at least Force 6 to have a slim chance, and unbound go all the way up to Force 14 before they have any real chance.

Woops, actually I may be thinking back to 3rd edition, a whole host of unpleasantness could happen to a mage, who was knocked unconscious due to either stun or physical damage in 3rd edition. Also I'm pretty sure that it happened to Talon in one of the novels ( being knocked out and having his ally go free ), so I might also simply remember wrong.

Anyway in 4th edition it states that "the services of a bound spirit does not expire while the magician is alive " ( SR4 20th anniversary. Crb p. 188 ) strongly implying that if a magician is killed any services are nullified and the spirit just departs. What happens if a magician is just knocked out is a good question though. I would probably rule it somewhat similar to a focus turning off if the magician is knocked out , so an unbound spirit just splits and so does a bound spirit, but you retain any unused services.

Senko

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #5 on: (17:00:29/03-13-17) »
Personally I wouldn't think they'd lose control if unconscious/dead afyetall a benefit of binding is to have that spirit guarding you while you sleep. On the other hand sleep/unconsciousness is different to death so I guess the question is more gendrswap in that I'd like to know what happens to a mages magic when they die. Does it all unravel or does it hang around after the fact?

Styryx

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #6 on: (23:05:31/03-13-17) »
Bald Man, I like the way you think.   :)

Rosa, I missed that one little paragraph in the Street Grimoire.   ::)

Many thanks to everyone for your responses. 

Rosa

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #7 on: (23:49:48/03-13-17) »
Personally I wouldn't think they'd lose control if unconscious/dead afyetall a benefit of binding is to have that spirit guarding you while you sleep. On the other hand sleep/unconsciousness is different to death so I guess the question is more gendrswap in that I'd like to know what happens to a mages magic when they die. Does it all unravel or does it hang around after the fact?

I would say yes it unravels as there's no longer an aura for it to be connected to with the possible exception of wards which eventually expires or quickened spells.

Senko

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #8 on: (02:50:03/03-14-17) »
Personally I wouldn't think they'd lose control if unconscious/dead afyetall a benefit of binding is to have that spirit guarding you while you sleep. On the other hand sleep/unconsciousness is different to death so I guess the question is more gendrswap in that I'd like to know what happens to a mages magic when they die. Does it all unravel or does it hang around after the fact?

I would say yes it unravels as there's no longer an aura for it to be connected to with the possible exception of wards which eventually expires or quickened spells.

That's the problem though as I see it. We know there are exceptions e.g. wards (on their own timer), quickened spells and potions that last indefinately so far as I know because you invested the magic at creation. Here we have a spirit summoned to perform X tasks. We also know they can be sent home by (1) fulfiling their tasks (or running out of daylight), (2) being disrupted and (3) being banished. Similarly we know a bound spirit stays around indefinately until it has fulfilled all its tasks.

So the question is whether summoning works like a sustained effect e.g. your constantly pouring out magic to keep it running, if its an instant their and gone effect or if its an effect that has its own power source to keep it going. We can rule out the second option and of the two given that their are free spirits, ally spirits, bound spirits it seems to me that any mana needed to manifest the spirit is provided at the start and its only your specifying the tasks you've already paid for that occurs later. Now frankly this is largely accademic for most summoned spirits (unless they want to hang around) as their going to vanish at dawn/dusk regardless of whether the mage is alive. Since Bound spirits are already locked in till their disrupted or fulfil their tasks it seems to me they'd also be locked in if the mage died.

Rosa

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #9 on: (12:05:46/03-14-17) »
I disagree, the relationship between summoner and spirit is deeply personal on par with a contract between two individuals whether or not we're talking bound or unbound spirits. This is also reflected in the fact that the limit for how many spirits you can bind is tied to your charisma or in other words your force of personality, when the mage dies that bond dissipates along with the mages aura and any remaining services are gone.

The only exception to this that I would think was possible are the spirits bound under the rules for long term binding since they no longer count against the mages charisma because a certain amount of karma has been invested in it  and so it is no longer the personal bond that keeps them there.

And for the record yes I am one of those who disagree with the opinion that some have that a bound spirit will carry on an open ended service indefinitely since that would in effect render the rules for long term binding null and void.

Senko

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #10 on: (02:47:13/03-16-17) »
To each their own, one of those ask the GM their stance type questions as I don't think there's a RAW answer here at least not in the current edition. I could be wrong there are a lot of hidden rules in this system.

Reaver

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #11 on: (21:02:03/03-20-17) »
AS TO TALON:
It did happen to him, Burning Bright I believe is the novel.... (Happened during Bug city).



 All Summonings, no matter the source are voluntary agreements between the Spirit and the Summoner. The Spirit agrees to do the summoner a number specific tasks, and in return the Spirit gets <Unknown, not important. See the big red bar in the Core book in the magic section!>.

If the mage is dead, why would the Spirit stick around? It's not going to receive its reward for doing the tasks, you're dead!
OR
If you paid the Spirit in Advance, and your dead, why would it continue?? It's not like you can ask for a refund  :P


REMEMBER: Spirits are sapient, they have the full range of human emotion, intelligence and personality, they are NOT unthinking, mindless automatons.   
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Crimsondude

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #12 on: (21:33:52/03-20-17) »
AS TO TALON:
It did happen to him, Burning Bright I believe is the novel.... (Happened during Bug city).
Kyle Teller.

Senko

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Re: Mage/Shaman death and spirits
« Reply #13 on: (03:12:52/03-21-17) »
AS TO TALON:
It did happen to him, Burning Bright I believe is the novel.... (Happened during Bug city).



 All Summonings, no matter the source are voluntary agreements between the Spirit and the Summoner. The Spirit agrees to do the summoner a number specific tasks, and in return the Spirit gets <Unknown, not important. See the big red bar in the Core book in the magic section!>.

If the mage is dead, why would the Spirit stick around? It's not going to receive its reward for doing the tasks, you're dead!
OR
If you paid the Spirit in Advance, and your dead, why would it continue?? It's not like you can ask for a refund  :P


REMEMBER: Spirits are sapient, they have the full range of human emotion, intelligence and personality, they are NOT unthinking, mindless automatons.   

Some of which are Honourable/noble/honest/annoying rules lawyers and if paid in advance will insist on honouring the contract they were paid for. Remember not all spirits are Australians who'll break the law at the faintest hint they can get away with it.

Now I'm not saying all or even most spirits would stick around after the mage dies especially if not paid in advance but some surely would whether it's because they were paid in advance and are obligated, take pride in always finishing what they start or some weird spirit reason. For which applies in a given situation see your GM.
« Last Edit: (03:18:34/03-21-17) by Senko »

 

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