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Author Topic: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition  (Read 2011 times)

Sipowitz

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #60 on: (13:49:04/03-05-17) »
Tradition should never be used as justification.
While that is true, you can hardly fault someone for sticking to tradition when the reason that tradition existed in the first place is still around; in the case of Shadowrun, that reason is "if you put every single gun, armor, gear, 'ware, vehicle and magic option in the core rulebook it'd be way too big".
Perhaps.   
What does the equipment porn actually do for the game?  That should be something that should be really truly thought about, because if the knee jerk reaction is 'cuz tradition', well there is a problem(imnsho). 

MijRai

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #61 on: (15:45:11/03-05-17) »
To be honest, a part of why I love Shadowrun is the equipment porn.  It's a game where if there's a job, there's a tool.  There's a variety of tools in fact, different ones getting the job done a little differently.  I love it.  I want to have all of those options available, and while sure, one could take the same basic 'Assault Rifle' stats and slap different names/images on them, that is boring to me.  If I want to play a game where equipment is less integral, I'll find a different system and setting, because what you use is as important as how you use it in Shadowrun.  Partially for my preference for it (I enjoy Pathfinder for the gear as well), partially because I find it evokes the setting quite well.  It's a world where brand names are everywhere, on everything.  There's no escaping them.  Everyone has something they want to sell you, and they have to compete with everyone else selling that same thing.  Not only do you have to keep the quality in mind, but the cost.  I can't imagine Shadowrun without all those little details (which is why I refuse to pick up Anarchy). 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #62 on: (19:12:29/03-05-17) »
I find that calling it equipment "porn" is actually quite accurate. I know I get excited when I look at all those weapons, armors, vehicles, drones, 'wares, accessories and modification and think about what options I'm going to take and how fun those toys are going to be once I get my hands on them, and I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way. Granted, it's not a sexual sort of excitement (Class 4 I-Dolls with "certain modifications" notwithstanding), but I've written lists of all the toys I want and all the modifications and accessories I'm going to put on them, as well as a 1.2 million nuyen betaware upgrade. I've looked at those lists weeks, or even months, after they were written in moments of boredom, thinking about how awesome it's going to be when I finally got them. Now that I have managed to get my hands on some of those goodies, I've been thinking about how awesome they're going to be when I use them next session (or more accurately for everything except the new assault rifle, whenever they're relevant; I've had my car for a while and haven't used for anything other than basic transportation, leaving me disappointed that we haven't had a chase scene yet). Trust me, there is an analogy to masturbation to be made. More specifically the analogy involves nudes from a girlfriend, because once you've got the nuyen you can actually get what you've been wanting.

Woo, that got a little weird there.

Anyways, you need a LOT of different options because people want to do different things and do them different ways. Some guys think a helicopter should be a relatively stealthy observation and extraction vehicle; others, like me, want assault helicopters and assault helicopters with transport capability. Plus you need some aesthetic variety as well. I didn't like the sound of the Hyundai Shin-Hyung, but fell into love with the GMC Phoenix despite them being mostly the same statwise.

Carmody

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #63 on: (03:39:37/03-06-17) »
Now that basically everybody agrees on the fact that the books are poorly organized, what would be the ideal way to organize things.
I can think of two ways:
  • All the fluff, then at the end of the book (or each chapter) a Game Information section with the rules. I like that for fluff books, I can also see that for Street Grimoire, but not for gear.
  • The way used for Arsenal section of Run & Gun, with gear presentation in character and all the rules in highlighted boxes (I do not know the proper english word for this, would like to learn though)

I like to see some fluff within the gear, it is what makes weapons, vehicles, whatever unique, more that a negligible difference in stats in my opinion. However, I'd like to know wether you consider that practical or not.

Jack_Spade

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #64 on: (04:46:00/03-06-17) »
To minimize page numbers and make indexing easier I'd like to see the following three parts for gear:
1) Description of the piece of gear with proper keyword use.
Example:
The Ares Alpha is a Bullpup Assault Rifle with 2 points Recoil Compensation, a 6 Shot single action Grenade Launcher and integral Smartgun
2) One or two sentences fluff, in a slightly different font with Shadow Talk
Example:
This baby is used primarily by Knight Errant and other Special Forces. No licences for you Omae, no, not even then. If they catch you with it, kiss your ass goodbye.
3) Weapon stats as part of a list, repeating integral gear
ACC 5(7), RC 2, Ammo 42,...
Smartgun, Underbarrel Grenade Launcher

For the rules part, I'd like it to be similar:
1) Short Story and Fluff
2) Rules with defined terms and precise wording
Examples: Keyword "Melee" means you have -3 to use and evade ranged attacks
3) At the end of the book a collection of all tables and modifiers




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MijRai

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #65 on: (12:14:56/03-06-17) »
When it comes to mechanics of the game, I prefer a complete separation.  The only 'in-game' part there should be the side-bar examples. 

When it comes to equipment, I do like having a little bit of lore then.  A small paragraph stating what it is there for/the sales pitch, a line or three of JackPointers gossiping if it is interesting (not really needed for stuff like rope), etc.
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Senko

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #66 on: (17:24:11/03-06-17) »
Personally I'm rather inclined to a fluff/rules division myself that is like some of the chapters you have the fluff at the start and then the rules. It doesn't have to be that hardly seperated just not mixed that is for example . ..

Book
1) Chapter Index
2) Chapters
3) Index

Chapter
1) General Fluff Story
2) General Chapter

Gear Entry
1) Rules/stats in a purely x is Y format.
2) Fluff Entry about the piece.

Magic Entry
1) Rules
2) Fluff about the phenoma/creature

and so on so you'd have a mix of fluff/rules through the book but you'd know what your looking at. Although I'd prefer more information the traditions in the street grimoire are rather good for that in my opinion. There you have . . ..

1) Tradition Name
2) Fluff
3) Big red box with hard information types of spirits, preferred spells, preferred adept powers.

So you can flick to a relevant tradition, read the fluff description or just look at the obvious box to find out that for example chaos summons water spirits for manipulation. Throw in types of reagents gathered and the like in that box and it'd be for me a nice way to divide the rest. That way you'd have the dodge scoot, a nice picture, a big red box with purely mehanical stats and then a black on white text fluff description.

Ragnarok

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #67 on: (20:54:48/03-20-17) »
I am really disappointed in how SR5 has been rolled out, generally speaking.  The one thing that got me hooked, was the inclusion of the Technomancer.  SR5 has been out quite a bit now, and still nothing on a dedicated TM book.  Data Trails had a wonderful opportunity to expand upon the TM toolbox, but the opportunity was carpet-bombed.  And still nothing on the rumored TM book. 

I understand that the TM isn't everybody's cup of tea, but there are some that do like them.  Sprinkling a handful of TM options here and there is actually quite insulting to TM fans.
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Ragnarok

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #68 on: (21:13:04/03-20-17) »
My 2 cents on how an SR5/SR6 book can be organized:

Split into 3 sections: Setting, Rules, Everything Else.

Setting Section split into History and the "fluff".

Rules Section having all the Rules Character Creation, Skills, and character options.

Everything Else Section having all the Magic, Matrix, and Gear info.

I know this is probably overly-simplistic, but I think it could be more cohesive.
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Tym Jalynsfein

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #69 on: (14:26:52/03-21-17) »
Pretty much how nWOD /Chronicles of Darkness does it... nothing wrong with that approach.
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Mirikon

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #70 on: (16:05:30/03-21-17) »
Hell, just go back to doing it the way EVERY OTHER EDITION of Shadowrun has done it. Have an 'in character' section at the front of the chapter, and then a Game Information section at the end of it. Simple, easy, and it works.
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Dwagonzhan

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Re: Reduce Filler in 6th Edition
« Reply #71 on: (14:48:47/03-22-17) »
Hell, just go back to doing it the way EVERY OTHER EDITION of Shadowrun has done it. Have an 'in character' section at the front of the chapter, and then a Game Information section at the end of it. Simple, easy, and it works.

^So much this.
Cut the snark from the gear descriptions, and keep rules mechanics concise.
Ideally, I shouldn't have to cross reference anything more than once (and even then, the worst of it should fall under Rigger builds, where it's all about attaching gear onto vehicles/drones)

The only times that the goofy in-line commentary on gear entries works is when it's a Shadowtech style format. (or Gun Heaven / Run & Gun for a 5e analog)
But even Shadowtech and Cannon Compaion had a condensed list of gear entries at the end.
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