[firebug]

Spells are actually the most balanced part of magicians.  They only become a problem when things like Quickening come into effect (allowing a mage to buff themselves to godhood with a much lower cost than any other archetype, and a very real problem of an arms race with the GM).  Spirits have been a problem for multiple editions, though some houserules (such as having the spirit use Edge if they are higher Force than the magician's MAG) do help prevent the biggest issue (summoning a F10 spirit and just destroying everything for example).

Which is why background count doesn't feel fair to anyone.  It penalizes everything the mage does, including the things that aren't a problem.  If 10% of the character's options are problematic for the GM and the group, and so 80% of the character gets a penalty because of it, it feels totally unfair.

[Slipperychicken]

Spells are actually the most balanced part of magicians.  They only become a problem when things like Quickening come into effect (allowing a mage to buff themselves to godhood with a much lower cost than any other archetype, and a very real problem of an arms race with the GM).  Spirits have been a problem for multiple editions, though some houserules (such as having the spirit use Edge if they are higher Force than the magician's MAG) do help prevent the biggest issue (summoning a F10 spirit and just destroying everything for example).

Which is why background count doesn't feel fair to anyone.  It penalizes everything the mage does, including the things that aren't a problem.  If 10% of the character's options are problematic for the GM and the group, and so 80% of the character gets a penalty because of it, it feels totally unfair.

It makes me wonder why they made background count at all instead of just nerfing summoning and quickening. Like saying you can't use edge or reagents on a quickened spell, or that spirits' stats aren't as busted, or that you can't summon a spirit with force higher than your MAG. Things like that seem a lot more straightforward and targeted than trying to patch over it with even more rules.

Try telling a street Sam they're bullets do -3 damage because it's a smoggy day or the rock concerts so loud all their implants below rating 5 are shut down when they're on a job and see how long it takes them to stop playing.

Try telling the street sam his gun has -2 to hit because he's running, -2 because it's raining, -2 because of the loud rock concert breaking his concentration, -3 because a goon with a tire iron is standing next to him, -1 because he got shot last round, a -3 because some goon is trying to suppress him, -4 because his target has a flash-pak... People look at a diepool of 17 and call it busted, but I say that's exactly what you need when the penalties stack up.

[firebug]

Well, background count has existed for a long time.  So they couldn't just eliminate it from the game.  Though that does make them not including it in the core book more of a slip-up, as it's a basic feature of the setting.

From what I understand, it used to directly lower your Magic attribute.  A lot of stuff used to do that in older editions.

When they tried to decide how this setting-staple works for 5th edition, they went overboard with it, in both its potency and how common of an occurrence it supposedly should be.

If Quickening and Spirits are made more manageable, then Background Count could be reliably kept to very rare scenario.  Though you better believe every single HTR mage is going to know Mana Static to cripple magicians and adepts still.  God that's a brutal spell.

[adzling]

at our table quickening is pretty useless due to prevalence of wards, mana barriers, background counts and astral security + most quickened spells are illegal.

in order to limit insane spirit power (an 8 cha mage can have eight bound and one summoned spirit in use at once, no need for any other muscle) we limit combined force of any spirits in use at any one time to be (magic+initiate grade)2

without the above mages are just op, they call it magicrun for a reason ;-)

[Ghost Rigger]

Try telling a street Sam they're bullets do -3 damage because it's a smoggy day or the rock concerts so loud all their implants below rating 5 are shut down when they're on a job and see how long it takes them to stop playing.

Try telling the street sam his gun has -2 to hit because he's running, -2 because it's raining, -2 because of the loud rock concert breaking his concentration, -3 because a goon with a tire iron is standing next to him, -1 because he got shot last round, a -3 because some goon is trying to suppress him, -4 because his target has a flash-pak... People look at a diepool of 17 and call it busted, but I say that's exactly what you need when the penalties stack up.

Two of those can be eliminated with murder,  loud noise isn't even listed as a penalty to ranged attacks and the rest can be reduced or eliminated with gear, ware or both. (except for running, d'oh)

[Reaver]

Background counts are a bit wonky in 5e that is for sure....In fact the entire 5e write up is clunky, they cover all the basics but mess up in delivery.

MY USEAGE of background counts is much more flavored from 3e, but follow 5e very closely as well.

The big thing that most people miss is the acclimation to background counts. IF you in a neighbourhood of a BC 4, well, after some time that BC count goes away for you, but not for those that visit. I just look at the size of the awakeneds "neighbourhood" to be an entire city... and thus factor that a non issue for local runners. That just leaves the nasty places with BC to worry about for both me and the team. <Keep in mind that cuts both ways, NPCs don't have an issue either!>

Now, keeping that acclimation to mind, going into that Toxic Shaman's lair, where the BC is 4 means nothing to him (he's acclimated to it), but a LOT to the other awakened on the team (who face dice pool, or power point modifiers).

[firebug]

The example with a toxic shaman would be represented by the mana being aspected to toxic magic, rather than the mage being acclimated to the background count.  That's actually already how it works in 5th, which is why fighting a radiation mage close to the Cermak Blast is one of the worst things imaginable.

As I mentioned, the Home Ground quality exists, but only reduces it by 2, and only covers a relatively small area, and so is extremely limited in application if you went by the suggested way to apply background count.

[Tym Jalynsfein]

I far prefer the Background Count rules from 4th Edition to the current ones. 5th Edition BGC rules just went way overboard, in my opinion, withth e ability to hav e a BGC of up to 24. what kind of craziness is that? 1-12 was not horrid, with most areas having a 0-1 count and the occasional spike to 3-4. RARELY was there a 5+ Background cout to worry about, thoguh it could happen. Yes, you lost Magic rating with 4th Edition, but I think it worked far better in my opinion...

[adzling]

In our game background counts are typically 1-4 and very rarely a 5.

Excepting the oddball stuff like voids and outer space.

[Novocrane]

Personally, I'd like to see environmental modifiers, noise, and background counts scrapped and done over as modifiers to limits.

[firebug]

You know, background count as purely a modifier to limits might work really well...  It would mean you have to pull more mana into you (higher Force, risking higher Drain) to accomplish the same tasks.  It would still weaken spirit summoning, and wouldn't completely screw sustaining foci.  Dual-natured entities would receive it as a limit penalty to all actions (minimum Limit being 1).  Adepts would experience the lower limit on anything that's modified by one of their powers, or maybe only affect inherent limits (no BC making your gun less accurate because you're less magic than usual).

It would also make it more cohesive, as "good" BC already modified limits.

Although, it would mean higher BC is potentially even more crippling.  Lowering limits by 1 or 2 is manageable, but when you get to 4 or higher, that could become a serious problem.  It'd need playtesting...

The more I think about it, the more I feel like that would be the best solution.

It would give more value to reagents, which I like, and allow BC to be more ever-present without feeling as much like a penalty (as a reduced limit doesn't feel quite the same as a dice pool penalty).

I know I've heard people claim "We can't rewrite entire rules!" but that's simply not true; the MMRI echo in Data Trails completely overwrites the Mind-Over-Machine echo in the core book.  And Rigger 5.0 introduced a new, fleshed-out set of rules for chase combat (labelled as "Optional").  If this would make the game more balanced and make people feel like they can actually make use of Background Count without feeling bad, then it's what's necessary.

[adzling]

that's a good idea Novocrane, a really good idea.

Perhaps it's something worth pushing on whoever authors 6e.

Personally, I'd like to see environmental modifiers, noise, and background counts scrapped and done over as modifiers to limits.

[Senko]

You know, background count as purely a modifier to limits might work really well...  It would mean you have to pull more mana into you (higher Force, risking higher Drain) to accomplish the same tasks.  It would still weaken spirit summoning, and wouldn't completely screw sustaining foci.  Dual-natured entities would receive it as a limit penalty to all actions (minimum Limit being 1).  Adepts would experience the lower limit on anything that's modified by one of their powers, or maybe only affect inherent limits (no BC making your gun less accurate because you're less magic than usual).

It would also make it more cohesive, as "good" BC already modified limits.

Although, it would mean higher BC is potentially even more crippling.  Lowering limits by 1 or 2 is manageable, but when you get to 4 or higher, that could become a serious problem.  It'd need playtesting...

The more I think about it, the more I feel like that would be the best solution.

It would give more value to reagents, which I like, and allow BC to be more ever-present without feeling as much like a penalty (as a reduced limit doesn't feel quite the same as a dice pool penalty).

I know I've heard people claim "We can't rewrite entire rules!" but that's simply not true; the MMRI echo in Data Trails completely overwrites the Mind-Over-Machine echo in the core book.  And Rigger 5.0 introduced a new, fleshed-out set of rules for chase combat (labelled as "Optional").  If this would make the game more balanced and make people feel like they can actually make use of Background Count without feeling bad, then it's what's necessary.

So why not go back to the edition mentioned earlier then? That is have background count as a modifier to limits but reduce the amount of background count to values that were apparently in 4th ed e.g. most areas having a 0-1 count and the occasional spike to 3-4 and rarely a 5+ Background cout. That way 90% of the time a mage's actions aren't being punished as my walking around town and spellcasting is getting a 0 count as its the normal level, if I'm dealing with an area that has weird or prolonged suffering its higher and the big bad sections are a 5. Since its applied to limits that would be I think suitably challenging without utterly crushing a mage as written.

Some examples would be . . .

Rating 0-1
Normal levels or significant but brief emotional or small but continuous spiritual or magical influence e.g. a violent crime, a small town church.
Rating 2
Significant but brief emotional experiences shared by a LARGE group of people (>50,000?, >5,000?, >5,000,000?) or steady emotional or magical impact over several years. Examples include riots, cities with heavy pollution or a desnse population living in misery.
Rating 3
Significant events over a prolonged period or time generating emotional significance over decades or centuries. Most of the great mana lines and power sites fit this category e.g. Gobekli Tepi nexis, Nazi Death Camps or the Chicago Zone.
Rating: 4
Places that host significant events over a prolonged period of time where the events are still occuring e.g. stonehenge, arlington cemetary.
Rating 5
The most powerful mana lines or events that have emotional or magical significance to most of humanity e.g. the great cain line in Tir Na nog.
Rating 6+
A background count of 6 or higher is considered a mana warp where the mana flows and surges chaotically. These are usually found in the upper atmosphere but there are other odd places that warped astral space beleived to be created by a combination of immense emotional impact combined with a m asive maniuplation of mana e.g. the aurora borealis.

Obviously needs more work but I think that would work better as well.

[firebug]

I also want to add (without pissing anyone off) that by the book's definition, I don't see why Chicago's CZ isn't as high as Auschwitz in Background Count.  I'm saying this to illustrate how nonsensical the book's metric is.

RATING 16-18
A positive background count of 16 or higher is considered a mana warp. Mana flows and surges chaotically in these areas. These  levels  of  background  counts  are  usually  found  in  the upper  atmosphere,  but  there  are  other  odd  places  that  have warped  astral  space.  It  is  suggested  that  these  places  have  a combination of a sudden, heart-wrenching, emotional event and a massive manipulation of mana.
Examples include Auschwitz and Blackstone Prison (Rating 16), Aurora Borealis (Rating 18)

A sudden, heart-wrenching, emotional event...
Not unlike bug spirits suddenly bursting forth, stealing people out in the middle of the street, happening all over the city at once.

A massive manipulation of mana...
Not unlike what would be required for the attempted summon of an insect queen to take over the world.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you spell out Bug City to be one of the biggest atrocities to happen in the Sixth World, beyond that which humanity has been previously capable of, then you can't claim it doesn't fit on a chart like this.  And Bug City went on for over a decade.  Nukes, prolonged inhuman suffering, an incredible amount of death and violence, starvation, despair...  Basically everything that could go wrong went wrong, on top of one of the biggest and most-infamous acts of magical terrorism.

Oh, but...  There was FAB III there.  So it's a -2.

[Reaver]

Meh.


Seen worse 'technical' errors. (anyone else ever seen the original Star Trek Enterprise Technical Manual??)

And, we trying to compare ratings through editions. Not to mention events, and the emotions tied to those events....

And don't sell FAB 3 short!! That shit is insidious!! Especially in 3e where it first came out.... it scrubbed out any trace of magic, burned it out of awakened beings and the dual-natured alike! The deaths to the Dual Natured in the CZ are described in the same terms... But that emotional soakage gets scrubbed out by the FAB3 as well... That, and the fact that since FAB3 only dies out after a prolonged period of starvation of MR.... something that will never happen in a city. Ever.... and you get a continuous, cancerous effect to that area, which they have decided over-rides the what would have been higher rating under their system. And to make the zone actually survivable.

Also. Magic.


Never discount magic.