[Novocrane]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "all aspected background count is positive for something magic"

Given the full range of possibilities, not every count has to be positive for something, but it doesn't have to be always negative for everything, either.

A positive value relates to mana that has been aspected in some fashion, making it harder to control unless your aspect overlaps with it

Aspected mana is difficult to use; in some cases, it may shut down an Awakened person’s powers entirely. Unless, of course, they are aligned or acclimated (p. 30) with the aspect.

The writing is contradictory on whether you align with an aspect or a domain, and defaults to talking about traditions and alignment, but tbh, I'm not interested in digging through the books on this. If I'm right, I'm already doing it, and if I'm wrong, that's boring and I don't want to be right.

[firebug]

If I'm right, I'm already doing it, and if I'm wrong, that's boring and I don't want to be right.

A respectable outlook when it comes to these kind of things.

Back on topic though, another major balancing factor with augmentations is Availability.  The only way for a mundane character to get +4 to multiple attributes at chargen is to use Restricted Gear and spend over half your Essence on Alphaware R4 Muscle Replacements.  That's a huge expense.  Availability also means there's a strict limit on what the max bonus to initiative dice is.  The Restricted Gear quality lets you get around the restriction, but only for one piece, and there's a lot of things that quickly cap the 12 Availability.  Getting the 'ware Used-quality does decrease its Availability, but then you are limited to less augmentation overall due to Essence cost.

[Senko]

Personally I feel background magic shouldn't be used the way its written it just doesn't work. Background counts beyond 0 should be limited to weird, freaky occurances or prolonged horrific events not a concert hitting 4. Of course most major corporate research facilities can easily be under either of the categories I listed to challenge the mage. Although I think its interaction could be looked at.

[Quatar]

Yes, I think BC as written is just terrible.
A 1 pretty much always, usually even a 2 if more than 3 people meet? A 4 being relatively common as well?

Sure BC doesn't actually lower your Magic rating, but it's still a terrible penalty for anyone using magic.
Foci were already mentioned, but I think it's kinda overkill what it does to Quickened spells. You need to initiate and take a metamagic for that and then spend karma on it, and then, poof it's just gone. No opposed test even. Just gone. Foci at least reactivate when you leave the area.

If you're using that then please also use Noise and tell the street sam that his wired reflexes don't work, cause they're DR 2 and he's in a spam zone. He's gonna love that just as much as the mage loves BC.

If there was something like noise reduction for BC, I could agree with it, but like this is just terrible.

[Kiirnodel]

Umm, quickened spells come back after you leave the background as well. They revive themselves at a rate of 1 point of Force per hour, until they reach their original Force.

[Ghost Rigger]

Example: Johnson Meet - Make all players make an etiquette test if at the meet. No successes equals a 1 die penalty in negotiations, a glitch equals a 3 die penalty and -3 social limit, etc. Using this method, your highly cyberized companion likely just cost you Nuyen. While the Johnson will likely appreciate the abilities the cyber brings, their innate uncanniness makes him wish to not have to do business with them.

This just sounds like you're punishing the entire group for not having at least 8 dice in Ettiquette each. A streetsam's lack of social finesse won't come up unless he runs his mouth, which is only going to occur through roleplay or negative qualities.

Example: Everyone needs to enter a high security event. How good is his Con when trying to lie in response to direct questions about his obvious cyber enhancement picked up by the scanners. When he fails miserably, which most times he will, likely they will then give his credentials a thorough inspection and attempt to run his licenses through Lonestars(KE<etc) database. Most likely not only will he not get in, he might find himself in a gunfight with a HTR team with only his cyber weapons and maybe a light pistol.

Except you can just have the face lie for you, or better yet have him get you into the joint in a manner where you won't even be questioned. In fact, why bother with lying in the first place when keeping your mouth shut and offering your cyberware license freely works just as well? After all, it's not like a reliable fake license is expensive. But what about illegal cyberware, you say? Most chrome is legal, even if most of the nicer toys are restricted, and it's not hard to hide illegal chrome from a cyberscanner, you just need a lot of chrome. The streetsam I'm playing right now has 0.02 essence, 2 bioware implants and 10 different cyber implants. In order to find the one illegal piece of cyberware I have (cyberarm gyromount), a scanner would have to get 4 hits, which is unlikely given that it has a dice pool of 8 at the largest. And that's just standard grade ware; it gets even harder with better grades.

Mostly, its the fact that magic doesn't have a Cap to it that makes a difference....

With cyberware, there is  a hard cap of 6 essence worth. No matter how thinly you slice your essence up, you can't spend more then that.

For mages, that new spell, and thus ability, is just 5 karma way. An other PP for adepts is just an initiation way....
With Karma being the only limit to the power limit of an awakened...

Thing is, you can slice your essence pretty damn thin with higher grades of ware and/or by switching from cyber to bio, but that is expensive. And by "expensive" I mean that as a streetsam I find myself fantasizing about the following scenarios:

• Capturing a blood and/or toxic mage alive and getting that sweet one million reward from the Draco Foundation.
• Finding a brick of orichalum on a run and stealing it.
• Stealing a few duffel bags of gold bullion from a vault in a Triad casino and getting completely away with it (this actually happened once).
• Stealing all the gold bullion from a vault in a Triad casino and getting completely away with it.
• Finding Sirrurg's now-unguarded hoard.
• Killing a dragon that nobody really cares about and looting its hoard.
• As the above scenarios, but the rest of the team either is dead through no fault of my own or has had the wool pulled over their eyes buy yours truly, so I don't have to split the money with anyone.
• Killing other teammates so there's more money for me. Note: this one I wouldn't actually carry out.....on purpose....unless the technomancer puts a sprite in my chrome again after I specifically told her that I'd kill her if she did it again, at which point the money will only be a bonus.
• Being paid for a run with a visit to a deltaware clinic and a blank cheque signed by Lofwyr himself.

[Quatar]

Umm, quickened spells come back after you leave the background as well. They revive themselves at a rate of 1 point of Force per hour, until they reach their original Force.

Guess you're right. I remembered the Arcology AP, where a few spells actually went away from BC permanently, I believe.

[Bloodhawke]

>This just sounds like you're punishing the entire group for not having at least 8 dice in Ettiquette each. A streetsam's lack of social finesse won't come up unless he runs his mouth, which is only going to occur through roleplay or negative qualities.<

IRL your impressions/reactions to a group are formed by all members of the group, though a particularly charismatic individual(ie. Face) helps to mitigate it. Most people in SR are made uncomfortable by low essence. There is a reason etiquette is a skill and people with low essence would do well to augment that skill, you don't fit in with most people.

"when people see others with augmentations—on some level, people notice there is something less (or more) human about that, and they respond to it negatively. The change may not be exactly visible, but it is in some way noticeable—in one way or another, a person has become less human, and on some level other people notice this." SR5 pg52

Also, in my example, you generally only need 4 dice to generate the one success needed to not be penalized.

>Except you can just have the face lie for you, or better yet have him get you into the joint in a manner where you won't even be questioned. In fact, why bother with lying in the first place when keeping your mouth shut and offering your cyberware license freely works just as well? After all, it's not like a reliable fake license is expensive. But what about illegal cyberware, you say? Most chrome is legal, even if most of the nicer toys are restricted, and it's not hard to hide illegal chrome from a cyberscanner, you just need a lot of chrome. The streetsam I'm playing right now has 0.02 essence, 2 bioware implants and 10 different cyber implants. In order to find the one illegal piece of cyberware I have (cyberarm gyromount), a scanner would have to get 4 hits, which is unlikely given that it has a dice pool of 8 at the largest. And that's just standard grade ware; it gets even harder with better grades.<

Have you ever entered a government building/Airport? Set off a scanner and they ask you questions, not the people you are entering with. The face, if present, may still be able to mitigate it with his abilities, but I guarantee you security will be watching you and anyone with you more carefully.

As for the scanner, a rating 6 scanner used by a rating 5 security person would have: Perception (6) + Intuition (5) = 11 dice with a limit of 6

To make it even more realistic at a high lvl function the following is probable:

Scanner Rt 8 used by a rating 5 Decker running a Rt 6 agent assisting: Electronic Warfare (6) + Logic(7) + agent(3)  = 16 dice/ limit 11 not including any custom programs on his deck to enhance this and the ability to Matrix search the licences quickly.

[Ghost Rigger]

IRL your impressions/reactions to a group are formed by all members of the group, though a particularly charismatic individual(ie. Face) helps to mitigate it. Most people in SR are made uncomfortable by low essence. There is a reason etiquette is a skill and people with low essence would do well to augment that skill, you don't fit in with most people.

"when people see others with augmentations—on some level, people notice there is something less (or more) human about that, and they respond to it negatively. The change may not be exactly visible, but it is in some way noticeable—in one way or another, a person has become less human, and on some level other people notice this." SR5 pg52

Here's the thing: when Mr. Johnson hires a team of shadowrunners, he's not looking for someone to be friends with or invite as dinner guests to a fancy party to impress his boss, he's looking for deniable assets, professionals with talents he doesn't have access to himself or both. It doesn't really matter that the streetsam isn't pleasant company and doesn't know which fork is the salad fork, because his selling point is that he is a killing machine.

Also, in my example, you generally only need 4 dice to generate the one success needed to not be penalized.

Still arbitrary, still a punishment.

Have you ever entered a government building/Airport? Set off a scanner and they ask you questions, not the people you are entering with. The face, if present, may still be able to mitigate it with his abilities, but I guarantee you security will be watching you and anyone with you more carefully.

Which is exactly why Mr.Johnson will typically offer a private flight there and back if the run requires you to leave the country.

As for the scanner, a rating 6 scanner used by a rating 5 security person would have: Perception (6) + Intuition (5) = 11 dice with a limit of 6

To make it even more realistic at a high lvl function the following is probable:

Scanner Rt 8 used by a rating 5 Decker running a Rt 6 agent assisting: Electronic Warfare (6) + Logic(7) + agent(3)  = 16 dice/ limit 11 not including any custom programs on his deck to enhance this and the ability to Matrix search the licences quickly.

Those rolls are merely to detect the presence of cyberware; as per pg 366 of the CRB, an additional roll is made with the scanner's rating to determine whether or not any specific cyberware is identified. Yeah, they'll know I have cyberware, but good luck figuring out what specific cyberware I have. And that's assuming they even have a cyberware scanner and aren't sticking with their old MAD system they've had since the 60s that works almost as well.

[Senko]

Yes, I think BC as written is just terrible.
A 1 pretty much always, usually even a 2 if more than 3 people meet? A 4 being relatively common as well?

Sure BC doesn't actually lower your Magic rating, but it's still a terrible penalty for anyone using magic.
Foci were already mentioned, but I think it's kinda overkill what it does to Quickened spells. You need to initiate and take a metamagic for that and then spend karma on it, and then, poof it's just gone. No opposed test even. Just gone. Foci at least reactivate when you leave the area.

If you're using that then please also use Noise and tell the street sam that his wired reflexes don't work, cause they're DR 2 and he's in a spam zone. He's gonna love that just as much as the mage loves BC.

If there was something like noise reduction for BC, I could agree with it, but like this is just terrible.

Yep noise and background count are I admit a very nice balancing tool if used correctly the problem is if used as written they just feel like your punishing mage/tech characters.  Just look at the tables . . .

Downtown: 1 noise, major event or advertising blitz 3 noise, Commercial area: 4 noise.
Magic Count 1-3: Bar frequented by the awakened or higher than normal pollution, Magic Count 4-8: sold out rock concert, bad pollution cities.

If you actually use them like that a mage could have half their foci/quickened spells knocked out by a bad smog day or visiting bangkok while anyone not a decker/invested in noise reducing tech would lose their wireless bonuses just by popping down to the mall. That kind of thing as I said should be limited to out of the usual things or places that have a valid reason. My mage working in a setting where Joe is ticked off at Pete and we're having a bad smog day shouldn't suddenly be battling a background count of 1-3 (and probably a 3 that'd knock out a lot of foci because HEAVY pollution is 4-8) to use their magic just as Sam's cybered sam shouldn't fear going to the mall for a movie because their gears going to shut down.

Personally I'd start off by dropping all the magic background count categories down one e.g. a sold out rock concert might generate a count of 1-3  when its going on due to the massive emotional upheaval of all the shouting fans and then go from there just like normal everyday living shouldn't be putting a noise rating of 4 on you.

Anyway my approach currently is if someone starts hitting my mage with background counts then I insist they also start hitting the other players with the as written noise penalties its only fair after all.

[Beta]

Background count has two problems about how it 'feels' in my mind (one of which it shares with noise)

- Having a penalty almost all of the time just feels like you are being punished for being that type of character.  It is a penalty, a negative -- which feels like something you should feel bad about.

- There is nothing about it in the main book.  So you start off being introduced to magic and how it works, and then it feels like a bit of bait and switch "Oh, yah, you are going to be penalized almost all of the time, and those foci that seemed so cool?  They are useless most of the time."  (this one applies to much of the section in the grimoire about spirits hating you, too).

The first is a game design thing, which I have some issues with but it is how they chose to do it.  The second was bad presentation.  They REALLY should have squeezed in a paragraph about the basics of background count in the main rules, but too late now.

[firebug]

I completely agree, Beta.  And those are a big part of why background count is hard to use to balance mages.  If it didn't lower the Force of stuff, and just gave a dice pool penalty to casting spells, summoning spirits, actions of dual-natured entities, etc...  Then it would be doable.  Still irritating, though, because that doesn't address either of the two big issues you mentioned.

It's funny because even the writers don't think it works that way.  Chicago's CZ would have way higher than 2 BC.  You know, from decades of horror and violence and pollution in addition to FAB III.  Seriously, here's the list of what applies to give 4 to 6 BC, with everything that applies to the CZ in bold:

RATING 4-6
Significant but brief emotional experience shared by a large group of people (more than fifty) or steady emotional or magical impact over several years. Examples include magical universities, sold-out rock concerts, high-security prisons, recycling centers, or alchemist or talisman shops. Cities that have heavy pollution or places with a dense population living in misery can also spawn this level of background count. For those domains connected to magic, the aspect is toward the traditions(s) taught or a certain magic skill set (such as Alchemy).
Examples: Teotihuacan (Rating 4), The Great Cahokia Mound Web (Rating 6), UCLA and CalTech (Rating 5), MIT&T (Rating 4).

The high-security prison being "I'm pretty sure the CZ containing everyone counts".

And each of those, on their own would justify 4 to 6 background count.  Three of them together in one place?  Six or more, without a doubt.

But the writers clearly state; the CZ has a background count of 2 because of the FAB III, and nothing more.  Even if you count the FAB III as -2 (which it is) and thus subtract it from the positive background count, that's still at least 4.  So why print rules in Street Grimoire if even the people who design the game think they're wrong?  How does such a thing even happen?

[Rooks]

Ettiquette is by all intents and purposes the social stealth skill its how you carry yourself

"Etiquette is about blending into the social fabric. Skilled
characters can move through a social situation without
anyone realizing that they don’t belong. It’s more than
knowing the right mores (you could look those up on the
Matrix), it’s about trained instinct.
You can use Etiquette to ease suspicions, so that people
might trust you more than they would an outsider.
Make an Etiquette + Charisma [Social] Test against the
other person’s Perception + Charisma [Social] Opposed
Test. If you get any net hits, they’ll accept you. If you get
3 or more net hits, their attitude toward you will improve,
moving up a line on the “NPC’s attitude” section of the
Social Modifiers table.
The skill is not meant to replace role-playing, but it
can save you from a social blunder that you (the player)
make when your character probably wouldn’t have."

So I dont see how rolling Ettiquette means anything when meeting a Johnson at a Shadowrunner bar since by all intents and purposes you are a Shadowrunner its more like walking in gangland territory you arent sticking out like a sore thumb being a corp stooge or if you are in public you dont stick out like a ganger about the rob the place.

[firebug]

If the person hiring you isn't prepared to meet a bunch of criminals, they're hiring the wrong people.  Of course, that's not to say you can't be rude or do something wrong to damage a meet, but those aren't things players should be assumed to do automatically and must roll to avoid.

That said, a rare occurrence could be the runners going for a job that explicitly requires all of them to be socially proper.  In which case the Johnson would expect them to look good and be capable of holding a conversation--  Though still, this wouldn't mean automatic Etiquette rolls.  It would mean that it's very likely for someone to have to roll Etiquette to save them from a social blunder, which is an explicit use of the skill.  But as it says; the skill should not replace roleplaying; if you are forcing players to automatically roll Etiquette just to sit at a table and not piss someone off, you're making the skill take the place of actual roleplaying.  If it works for your table, fine, but know that you're not playing the game the way it was designed.

[Senko]

I agree fully with the feeling your being punished for wanting to play a particular character type. Try telling a street Sam they're bullets do -3 damage because it's a smoggy day or the rock concerts so loud all their implants below rating 5 are shut down when they're on a job and see how long it takes them to stop playing. Yet so many people feel "magic is broken" they push for these limits and restrictions till its no actual fun to play a mage. Half the spells I want for my character (shape material, shapechange, control temperature, healthy glow, cleanse element) are actively discouraged as is because the cost of buying spells means each non-combat spell costs me elsewhere and even niche ones like make up or fashion are advised against. Then they point to mages with thousands of karma as proof of how overpowered they are.