Author Topic: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade  (Read 1513 times)

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #30 on: (03:00:44/02-20-17) »
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none of it enhances Reaction
That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.

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That's just completely not true, both in 5th and 4th editions.
Let's go over it.

Armour Encumbrance for 4e armour comes in at Body * 3.
The -1 encumbrance modifier to Agility and Reaction applies for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that value is exceeded.
Mobility Upgrade goes up to Rating 3. That means 6 additional points of armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.
Body 2, Strength 1 provides a high enough encumbrance threshold for light milspec armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.

5e, Restrictive.
Halve Movement and incur Fatigue rolls with every Running check, even the first one.
Zero mention of strength or body. No weight limit. Nada.

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the base armor has some servo-motors. These things aid movement, it doesn't make the armor an autonomous unit.
(5e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 2 dice on a lift test can wear milspec battle armour and walk as effectively as anyone else.
(4e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 3 dice on a lift test can wear mobility upgraded light military armour and function normally.
In both cases the person is not carrying the majority of their total armoured weight. Every motion is supported, enhanced, and assisted. From that point, it's a matter of upgrades towards operating based on the user's thought motive input, rather than their physical motive input.

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Pretty sure that the custom strength and custom agility aren't things that would be considered "non-invasive" or superficial.
The onus is on you to connect the information, then. Each superficial cybernetic limb comes with it's own strength and agility 3.

Kiirnodel

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #31 on: (06:03:59/02-20-17) »
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none of it enhances Reaction
That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.

And you'll note that as mentioned before in this thread, it seems to be pretty consistent that technological augmentations to Reaction are unavailable without Essence costs.

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That's just completely not true, both in 5th and 4th editions.
Let's go over it.

Armour Encumbrance for 4e armour comes in at Body * 3.
The -1 encumbrance modifier to Agility and Reaction applies for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that value is exceeded.
Mobility Upgrade goes up to Rating 3. That means 6 additional points of armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.
Body 2, Strength 1 provides a high enough encumbrance threshold for light milspec armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.
That's exactly my point, the user needs to have higher than minimum stats in order to be able to wear even the lightest of the mil-spec armors. They can't even wear the helmet with that without suffering encumbrance penalties.

5e, Restrictive.
Halve Movement and incur Fatigue rolls with every Running check, even the first one.
Zero mention of strength or body. No weight limit. Nada.

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the base armor has some servo-motors. These things aid movement, it doesn't make the armor an autonomous unit.
(5e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 2 dice on a lift test can wear milspec battle armour and walk as effectively as anyone else.
(4e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 3 dice on a lift test can wear mobility upgraded light military armour and function normally.
In both cases the person is not carrying the majority of their total armoured weight. Every motion is supported, enhanced, and assisted. From that point, it's a matter of upgrades towards operating based on the user's thought motive input, rather than their physical motive input.

Since you brought up the Strength+Body-based encumbrance I would be happy to point out that the rules don't actually say anything about armor not factoring into how much a person can carry. The pure weight-based encumbrance is completely arbitrary, because none of the gear has a listing for weight. It is up to the GM of a campaign to decide if things are "reasonable" and the rules are set up to have a system for if it really comes down to it. If you want to start factoring the weight of the armor into encumbrance, nothing in any of the rules say that it wouldn't count against the wearer's carried weight.

This whole thing is futile. You're bringing up points about how even the weakest person can wear this armor because it supports itself, but all of your reasoning is based purely on rules that aren't specific to the Milspec armor. The same exact rules apply to Armor Jackets, Security Armor, SWAT armor, etc. In 5th edition, none of these armors cause encumbrance, are you going to tell me that all of these armors have special gyros that allow the armor to move a body inside of it?

I will admit that the Milspec armor likely has some mechanical pieces in it that allow it aid the wearer's movement such that it is no more restrictive than security armor, despite being more protective. The same likely goes for the heavier levels of milspec, so that the bigger armors aren't significantly harder to wear. That would roughly simulate the situation we have in the 5th edition rules where the first set of base armor doesn't cause any specific encumbrance. But nothing in the description even borders on the idea that this even remotely approaches the level where it would allow full autonomous motion or even significantly aid the wearer in their own actions. The 5th edition version of Milspec no longer even has access to the strength enhancements and other utilities that they had in the 4e book. I could understand arguments to have those sorts of upgrades converted over (and I'm sure some groups probably have). But the whole point of this thread was asking if Wired Reflexes as an external unit is a reasonable upgrade to milspec style armor, and I haven't seen any evidence that could support that sort of idea.

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Pretty sure that the custom strength and custom agility aren't things that would be considered "non-invasive" or superficial.
The onus is on you to connect the information, then. Each superficial cybernetic limb comes with it's own strength and agility 3.
Gonna have to put the responsibility back on you there. I was going off of the meager information that you posted. I don't even know what book those are in, I checked Arsenal, Augmentation, and even Attitude. Nothing that you posted indicates that the "superficial cyberlimbs" which are meant to allow someone without any implants to pose as someone who does function in the exact same way as actual cyberlimbs. Based on the description you posted they sound like simple casings that can hold a few gadgets.
« Last Edit: (06:05:39/02-20-17) by Kiirnodel »

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #32 on: (16:39:30/02-20-17) »
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And you'll note that as mentioned before in this thread, it seems to be pretty consistent that technological augmentations to Reaction are unavailable without Essence costs.
What I've noted is that you appear to have cast your opinion already and are outwardly closed off to the idea from the ground up, but still feel like convincing someone else - or at least talking about the concept from a critical perspective. Also that I'm not in a position to be convinced it's impossible. Non-cyberware technological methods of increasing movement speed and reaction speed exist. From simsense to drones, the sixth world does not utilise software or hardware of a single uniform speed.

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That's exactly my point, the user needs to have higher than minimum stats in order to be able to wear even the lightest of the mil-spec armors
I did say "barely above". You can't actually have a zero in an attribute, so increasing the smallest amount from the absolute lowest possible non-comatose rank leaves you at 2.

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The 5th edition version of Milspec no longer even has access to the strength enhancements and other utilities that they had in the 4e book.
Which I consider on par with saying cranial containment unit cyborgs and cyberzombies can't exist until they receive a book in 5e, to say nothing of limited release or prototype technology (or just anything happening anywhere around the world outside the focus of the writers) that doesn't get into a book.

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I was going off of the meager information that you posted. I don't even know what book those are in, I checked Arsenal, Augmentation, and even Attitude.
If you had told me you had no idea where to find it, I would have pointed you towards Spy Games. Can't blame me for you not knowing where to look and not asking before you push out that much of a reply.
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Based on the description you posted they sound like simple casings that can hold a few gadgets.
Whereas I interpret it less ... minimally.

Kiirnodel

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #33 on: (17:57:49/02-20-17) »
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And you'll note that as mentioned before in this thread, it seems to be pretty consistent that technological augmentations to Reaction are unavailable without Essence costs.
What I've noted is that you appear to have cast your opinion already and are outwardly closed off to the idea from the ground up, but still feel like convincing someone else - or at least talking about the concept from a critical perspective.

I'm waiting for anything supported by the rules that shows that someone should be able to manipulate the reaction time of a person's body without intensive measures. Give me an example of an external device that increases a user's Reaction and Initiative while leaving them in full control of their body.

Also that I'm not in a position to be convinced it's impossible.
So you're going to be critical of me not budging on the topic and then you outright say that you can't be convinced either? That's not hypocritical at all...

Non-cyberware technological methods of increasing movement speed and reaction speed exist. From simsense to drones, the sixth world does not utilise software or hardware of a single uniform speed.

simsense and drones don't change the reaction speed of the person, just take advantage of the faster response time of purely neural impulses. Trying to add the functionality of Wired Reflexes is actually speeding up the whole body of a person, not just their mind. Drones and driving them as if they were your body requires a Control Rig (essence). And its been pointed out by many others that Milspec armor isn't a drone, it doesn't act like a drone, and it doesn't have the functionality of a drone.

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That's exactly my point, the user needs to have higher than minimum stats in order to be able to wear even the lightest of the mil-spec armors
I did say "barely above". You can't actually have a zero in an attribute, so increasing the smallest amount from the absolute lowest possible non-comatose rank leaves you at 2.

And rating 2 is also considered average for the common passersby. Not to mention that, as I said before, they are barely able to use the lightest of the light armor. The fact that it literally requires the wearer to be stronger than minimum is the entire point I was trying to make. The armor requires more than minimal assistance from the wearer. You can't be the weakest person ever and expect the armor to move for you, which is what you've been suggesting it already does.

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I was going off of the meager information that you posted. I don't even know what book those are in, I checked Arsenal, Augmentation, and even Attitude.
If you had told me you had no idea where to find it, I would have pointed you towards Spy Games. Can't blame me for you not knowing where to look and not asking before you push out that much of a reply.
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Based on the description you posted they sound like simple casings that can hold a few gadgets.
Whereas I interpret it less ... minimally.

Either site your sources or don't get snippy when I point out that the information you quoted doesn't support your own idea. Nothing in the text you quoted says anything about the cyberlimbs being fully functioning augmentations, because they aren't.

"Superficial cybernetics" is in the section with all of the other gear meant for camouflage and disguises. It is literally just a fake casing that fits over your limbs. The description only states that they give a bonus on Disguise Tests and can hold "some functionality" but nothing intensive. Not to mention that the term superficial literally means "only appearing to be true until examined closely," these are fake cyberlimbs. It's like wearing tattoo sleeves, except to look like cyberlimbs.

Nightmaster

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #34 on: (11:31:53/03-07-17) »
Wow... I posted an idea and now it became a war... chill guys please.

The idea was, again, not about a powered armor like the ones you see in movies like Ironman and others. The idea was to create a modification to a Mil Spec armor that would do the same as Wired Reflexes.

The "fluff" like you guys love to talk about, is that you would install on the entire armor a huge network of sensors that would act like the nervous system of the user, feeding data and information directly through simsense to the user brain. Coupled with additional servors on the armor the user would be able to react faster.

Let me remember you guys that Wired Reflexes only deal with the nervous system of the user. No muscle or even spine modification is done (I dont remember seeing it in the text). That is so true that Wired Reflexes is compatible with other modifications like muscular replacement and bone lacing and etc.

The entire idea is based on the fact that Wired Reflexes is a modification that alter the nervous system of the user to allow him to perceive the world slower and thus being able to react faster. Since no muscle is modified the capacity for the user to react faster was always there, but the brain (and the nervous system) are not naturally capable of utilizing all the potential that the metahuman body is capable for. There is where this armor mod enter to "tap" into that potential from another approach.

Also I have asked for drawbacks and penalties for such system so that the cyber version would still be prefered to this method.
« Last Edit: (11:51:22/03-07-17) by Nightmaster »

Adamo1618

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #35 on: (18:51:04/03-07-17) »
Wow... I posted an idea and now it became a war... chill guys please.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #36 on: (22:31:54/03-07-17) »
The idea was, again, not about a powered armor like the ones you see in movies like Ironman and others. The idea was to create a modification to a Mil Spec armor that would do the same as Wired Reflexes.

The "fluff" like you guys love to talk about, is that you would install on the entire armor a huge network of sensors that would act like the nervous system of the user, feeding data and information directly through simsense to the user brain. Coupled with additional servors on the armor the user would be able to react faster.

Let me remember you guys that Wired Reflexes only deal with the nervous system of the user. No muscle or even spine modification is done (I dont remember seeing it in the text). That is so true that Wired Reflexes is compatible with other modifications like muscular replacement and bone lacing and etc.

The entire idea is based on the fact that Wired Reflexes is a modification that alter the nervous system of the user to allow him to perceive the world slower and thus being able to react faster. Since no muscle is modified the capacity for the user to react faster was always there, but the brain (and the nervous system) are not naturally capable of utilizing all the potential that the metahuman body is capable for. There is where this armor mod enter to "tap" into that potential from another approach.

Also I have asked for drawbacks and penalties for such system so that the cyber version would still be prefered to this method.

The only problem with your idea as you just presented it is that the effects of Wired Reflexes is a two-way boost. It isn't just about perceiving the world around you faster, but also your body's ability to respond to your thoughts faster as well. The whole discussion about the armor being automated vs. functioning as a drone ties into that concept of if your mind is thinking at a higher speed, can your body actually keep up. Remember that Reaction is your Physical reaction time, while Agility is more like your coordination. If you are able to flinch twitch faster, that's your Reaction being boosted, but there isn't really a way for a suit of armor to make your twitch response faster.

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #37 on: (06:47:03/03-08-17) »
Things sometimes seem heated but it's rarely too serious. Don't worry, they're profesionals and also secretly gay lovers.
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Nightmaster

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #38 on: (07:48:58/03-08-17) »
The only problem with your idea as you just presented it is that the effects of Wired Reflexes is a two-way boost. It isn't just about perceiving the world around you faster, but also your body's ability to respond to your thoughts faster as well. The whole discussion about the armor being automated vs. functioning as a drone ties into that concept of if your mind is thinking at a higher speed, can your body actually keep up. Remember that Reaction is your Physical reaction time, while Agility is more like your coordination. If you are able to flinch twitch faster, that's your Reaction being boosted, but there isn't really a way for a suit of armor to make your twitch response faster.
I know its a two-way boost and yes your body can keep up.

Remember what I said about no muscle modifications being made to the user when instaling Wired Reflexes? Neural boosters and adrenalin stimulators are the modifications done to the user (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Wired_reflexes). In that way, it is clear that the body as a whole (in the muscle category of course) is capable of keep up with the increased perception time the user experiences. The key here is how you make the user experience that "altered perception time" in a different way other than the cyber implant and what drawbacks are there with this new method.

What I am asking for opinions in on the drawbacks and possible limitations that this system would have. For game balance.

Nightmaster

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #39 on: (08:00:51/03-08-17) »
My opinion that there would indeed be a drawback to this system is on the idea that since you are using a secondary system (simsense module) trasmiting the neural signals instead of using a direct method, there will be  "delay" in the I/O.

I just dont know how to translate that "delay" into the game system, either by limiting the rating of this system or by imposing other form of penalties.

Kiirnodel

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #40 on: (18:29:14/03-08-17) »
The point I was trying to make is that Wired Reflexes, with its neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators increases the physical reaction time, not just the neural response time to stimuli. Wired Reflexes is an extensive process that implants a variety of tech throughout the person's body so that they can process and respond faster. The idea that you've mentioned doesn't solve that second part, being able to "perceive faster" doesn't mean that the neural impulses to the person's body are going to be picked up any faster.

That "delay" is going to completely kill any sort of bonus to initiative. The initiative and reaction time bonus from Wired Reflexes (or Synaptic Boosters) is likely measured in fractions of a second. Any sort of delay where things need to be translated or transmitted, or whatever pretty much cancels out any sort of initiative boost you're likely to see.

By your description of what you want this accessory doing, it sounds more similar to the Responsive Interface Gear (RIG) that already exists (R&G pg 86). Combine that with a PI-Tac system, and you give the troop (or team) wearing the armor a pretty nice set-up for having increased tactical awareness. Combined with Leadership and proper group tactics, it can result in increased initiative as well as other bonuses.

Without something more invasive, though, I just don't see gear like that being able to increase response time (Reaction).

Reaver

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #41 on: (21:03:27/03-08-17) »
If you really want to delve deep into the Lore of shadowrun, you'll find this has been answered several times through out the setting and it's history. And there is no one simple answer, costs, setting, meta-gamming politics, as well as few other reasons.

I say, if you REALLY want what is basically "Mecha" Power Armor in your game, go for it. Charge the cost the Wired Reflexes X the essence cost for the upgrade (and THATS why you get the cyber!!), and go to town.

Just realize its not canon, nor supported by canon in any way. (By the simple fact that there is nothing like it in the books... and they are supposed to so the "best and popular" items of each type).

If your game does need to be canon, then your hooped.


But a little piece of advice from a long time game in a LONG time concurrent game (25 years, same game, same characters, same players): Canon goes out the window eventually :P 
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Nightmaster

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #42 on: (11:05:07/03-10-17) »
The point I was trying to make is that Wired Reflexes, with its neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators increases the physical reaction time, not just the neural response time to stimuli. Wired Reflexes is an extensive process that implants a variety of tech throughout the person's body so that they can process and respond faster. The idea that you've mentioned doesn't solve that second part, being able to "perceive faster" doesn't mean that the neural impulses to the person's body are going to be picked up any faster.

That "delay" is going to completely kill any sort of bonus to initiative. The initiative and reaction time bonus from Wired Reflexes (or Synaptic Boosters) is likely measured in fractions of a second. Any sort of delay where things need to be translated or transmitted, or whatever pretty much cancels out any sort of initiative boost you're likely to see.

By your description of what you want this accessory doing, it sounds more similar to the Responsive Interface Gear (RIG) that already exists (R&G pg 86). Combine that with a PI-Tac system, and you give the troop (or team) wearing the armor a pretty nice set-up for having increased tactical awareness. Combined with Leadership and proper group tactics, it can result in increased initiative as well as other bonuses.

Without something more invasive, though, I just don't see gear like that being able to increase response time (Reaction).
Thats why I said that in addition to the sensor mesh in the armor there would be also small aditional servors around the armor to help (the key word here is "help") the user move faster, but as I said before there would be a limit and the system would fail to keep up with the cyber version.

I am asking (game system wise) how to describe this inability for this armor mod to be equal to the Wired Reflexes cyber implant.

Do I limit the rating of the system?

Do I give a penalty in initiative checks?

Do I give a penalty to defense checks?


If you really want to delve deep into the Lore of shadowrun, you'll find this has been answered several times through out the setting and it's history. And there is no one simple answer, costs, setting, meta-gamming politics, as well as few other reasons.

I say, if you REALLY want what is basically "Mecha" Power Armor in your game, go for it. Charge the cost the Wired Reflexes X the essence cost for the upgrade (and THATS why you get the cyber!!), and go to town.

Just realize its not canon, nor supported by canon in any way. (By the simple fact that there is nothing like it in the books... and they are supposed to so the "best and popular" items of each type).

If your game does need to be canon, then your hooped.


But a little piece of advice from a long time game in a LONG time concurrent game (25 years, same game, same characters, same players): Canon goes out the window eventually :P
Again I am not talking about MECHA or even power armor.

A cybersuit (the main idea behind this) is not always a strength/armor/speed enhancing equipment. In this case I am just focusing on the reaction/speed part of the concept.

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #43 on: (21:40:24/03-10-17) »
You might consider something closer to an external move-by-wire system - constantly preparing your muscles for movement in any direction, and releasing in any direction instantly.

Nightmaster

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #44 on: (22:00:58/03-10-17) »
You might consider something closer to an external move-by-wire system - constantly preparing your muscles for movement in any direction, and releasing in any direction instantly.
That is a idea for sure