Author Topic: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade  (Read 1497 times)

Dasher

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #15 on: (16:13:29/02-15-17) »
As firebug says above, everything has a price.

If you had a hotsimm rig that provided some reaction increase, let us just say +1/+1d6 for sake of argument, it would probably come with the downside of distorted perception and motion sickness in use and massive headaches when it was shut down.  After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster and you mind/body is not ready for that. 

I would allow it in a game with those downside and I can totally see some runners being tricked into fieldtesting it . . .
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Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #16 on: (20:34:54/02-15-17) »
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After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster
Unlike regular hotsim? ::)

firebug

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #17 on: (22:33:04/02-15-17) »
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After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster
Unlike regular hotsim? ::)

Not at the same time as you move your body, no.  Only technomancers have been able to be in VR while fully conscious, and they need paranormal powers to do so.
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #18 on: (23:29:41/02-15-17) »
You don't have to be moving your body meat-wise.

Also, it's good to know about RAS Override - aka, the thing that keeps you still while using simsense. Disabling it is *not* sole domain of technomancers.

firebug

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #19 on: (23:34:39/02-15-17) »
I'm not talking about disabling RAS.  I'm talking about the Mesh Reality...  Thanks for assuming.
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #20 on: (02:33:15/02-16-17) »
You're welcome.

Regardless of the means you were privately thinking of, everything else still stands where it was.

Dasher

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #21 on: (10:57:51/02-16-17) »
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After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster
Unlike regular hotsim? ::)
Hotsim lets your thoughts interact directly with the matrix, without filters, that is why it is "faster", you do not actually think faster, but your thoughts interact with the matrix instantly.  If you tried to whip your body around as quickly as you can change trains of thought, things are going to break, which powered armor would have to compensate for, or at least try.

You don't have to be moving your body meat-wise.
Then you are not talking about the Mil Spec Armor Upgrade which this thread is suppose to be discussing.
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Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #22 on: (05:01:15/02-17-17) »
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Then you are not talking about the Mil Spec Armor Upgrade which this thread is suppose to be discussing.
Reconsider.

Battle armour already augments the user's physical actions and has to accommodate their range of motion. It's powered, (duh; that much armour is too heavy not to be) but the initiative for action comes from the user's movements.

Now imagine initiative for action does not come from the user's movements, but their simsense-given commands. The battle armour now performs their physical actions, while still accommodating their range of motion. (oh look - I'm talking about the milspec battle armour upgrade this thread is about!)

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If you tried to whip your body around as quickly as you can change trains of thought, things are going to break
Then you shouldn't be able to do it with other initiative boosters and battle armour. Simple, but demonstrably not true, as there are no BA specific rules to that effect.
« Last Edit: (05:03:29/02-17-17) by Novocrane »

Kiirnodel

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #23 on: (06:01:30/02-17-17) »
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Then you are not talking about the Mil Spec Armor Upgrade which this thread is suppose to be discussing.
Reconsider.

Battle armour already augments the user's physical actions and has to accommodate their range of motion. It's powered, (duh; that much armour is too heavy not to be) but the initiative for action comes from the user's movements.

Now imagine initiative for action does not come from the user's movements, but their simsense-given commands. The battle armour now performs their physical actions, while still accommodating their range of motion. (oh look - I'm talking about the milspec battle armour upgrade this thread is about!)

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If you tried to whip your body around as quickly as you can change trains of thought, things are going to break
Then you shouldn't be able to do it with other initiative boosters and battle armour. Simple, but demonstrably not true, as there are no BA specific rules to that effect.

The amount of power needed to aide the movement of someone in heavy armor is significantly smaller than the power necessary to move the dead weight of someone in said armor that has gone unconscious into VR. The armor might have servos and motors to assist the motion of the wearer to keep the weight from immobilizing them, but it probably isn't enough to move the armor autonomously, let alone with a body inside as well.

firebug

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #24 on: (14:31:28/02-17-17) »
What's being described is basically a mech suit, which wouldn't be made.  A rigger cocoon inside of a milspec drone already accomplishes what is wanted.  If a specific human shape was needed, an anthrodrone would work better and there'd be no reason to have the rigger inside of it.
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #25 on: (19:17:45/02-18-17) »
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The amount of power needed to aide the movement of someone in heavy armor is significantly smaller than the power necessary to move the dead weight of someone in said armor that has gone unconscious into VR.
It's a hypothetical.

If you're risking hyper-extension injuries and such (which you shouldn't, as battle armour can operate safely with a reaction & initiative boosted operator), then RAS Override is there for relaxed musculature.

If the issue is power requirements (more of a 5e introduced issue to backpedal battle armour tech levels), then disabling RAS Override is the option to maintain physical movement and simsense control - but keep in mind that battle armour is powered to prevent weight being a hindrance, which means it should be able to support its own wearer-filled limbs.

If both are a problem, then you're just being difficult for difficulty's sake someone should have removed battle armour from 5e entirely just upgrade the strength, reduce the weight, improve the software ergonomics where it's breaking users, and keep going.

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there'd be no reason to have the rigger inside of it
Cuts out the wireless hacking opportunity is the most obvious answer, and I'm confident some creative thought would bring others to bear.

Kiirnodel

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #26 on: (19:33:17/02-18-17) »
Where are you getting the idea that Milspec armor is able to act fully autonomously?

Something can be powered to the point that it aids motion, possibly even enhancing Strength through the use of mechanical advantage (etc) but still not be able to move itself completely or even help a person move faster than they already can.

We already know, for example that the armor is impeding enough that it slows down the wearer.

Even back in 4th edition, when they allowed the milspec armor to have some exclusive improvements, Strength was the only thing that could be improved, Agility and Reaction could be mitigated (by way of reducing the penalties from overencumbrance), but not enhanced. The armor has movement assist, not enough to move independently.

Even with RAS Override disabled, the user's physical body would still not be wired to be able to move/react faster. Either the armor would "react" faster and strain the user's limbs, or it wouldn't be able to move itself correctly as the body inside isn't operating the armor correctly.
« Last Edit: (19:36:29/02-18-17) by Kiirnodel »

Novocrane

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #27 on: (22:25:13/02-19-17) »
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Where are you getting the idea that Milspec armor is able to act fully autonomously?
I don't recall stating that outright. Battle Armour is not simply stacking ergonomically shaped plates of armour over a person's entire body, however. This is powered, mechanised armour that will act in conjunction with the wearer to lift what is some very heavy and solid armour, or provide an equivalent to security armour that can be worn for longer stretches of time.

Fourth edition is most explicit in pointing this out.
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By integrating additional servo-motors, improved joints, and similar enhancements, the armorís mobility is increased to allow users that are not as strong and well trained to wear it without being slowed down too much.
Not just integrating servo-motors and all that fun stuff, but additional servo-motors and fun stuff. You can have barely above zero capability to carry anything beyond your own body weight (let alone a full suit of battle armour) and still be mobile.

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Something can be powered to the point that it aids motion, possibly even enhancing Strength through the use of mechanical advantage (etc) but still not be able to move itself completely or even help a person move faster than they already can.
That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.

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Either the armor would "react" faster and strain the user's limbs
Just going to point out the level of ergonomic customisation involved here, and say 'no'.
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Each suit protects from head to toe, custom-ft to the wearer for maximum ergonomic freedom and comfort, an expense that keeps it from the ordinary field grunt.

If you want to get really fancy with fourth edition;
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For wannabe street sams, superficial cybernetics are available that look like real cyberarms and legs at one tenth the price.
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To hide your meat body, you can get modified cybernetic casings that make you appear augmented. Superficial cyberware can have some functionality like cyber spurs and blades, but they have to fit over the existing limb (items such as cyberguns or raptor cyberlegs cannot be included).
custom strength, custom agility, tough and non-invasive external limb augmentation. It exists.
« Last Edit: (22:33:04/02-19-17) by Novocrane »

Mirikon

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #28 on: (23:52:42/02-19-17) »
Even in sci-fi stories where actual powered armor is a thing, there's a difference between armor that helps your movements, adding to your strength and running speed, and armor that supersedes your movements (acting faster than you're physically capable of).

What you're talking about isn't milspec armor any more. You're talking about a battlesuit that you're jumped into, directly controlling. And that's a whole different kettle of fish. FYI, there isn't a combat-practical battlesuit around, either. Trust me, my AI samurai has looked.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: Wired Reflexes as a Mil Spec Armor upgrade
« Reply #29 on: (23:58:13/02-19-17) »
Not just integrating servo-motors and all that fun stuff, but additional servo-motors and fun stuff. You can have barely above zero capability to carry anything beyond your own body weight (let alone a full suit of battle armour) and still be mobile.

That's just completely not true, both in 5th and 4th editions. In 5th edition, Mil-spec armor is still considered restrictive, the enhancements are enough to make the armor more protective while just as impeding as the security armor.

In 4th edition, the bonus of the milspec armor was that it allowed the wearer to have less Body before being considered encumbered (it changed the calculation from Body x 2 to Body x 3). This meant that a wearer still had to have at least a Body of 4 in order to wear the very lightest of Milspec armors.

The section you quoted was the part about adding the Mobility upgrade, so yes, the base armor has some servo-motors. These things aid movement, it doesn't make the armor an autonomous unit. For example, on the very lightest armor (the Oyoroi armor with 11/11), upgraded with the maximum Mobility Upgrade R3; a character with Body 1 would still be encumbered at -1 to Agility and Reaction by this armor. Body x 3, compared to the 11 armor, is 8 points over-encumbrance, which results in a -4 penalty (1 per 2 points), compensated 3 points by the mobility upgrade down to -1. So Even the lightest armor with the best upgrades is not wearable, as you say, by someone "barely above zero capability to carry anything beyond [their] own body weight"

That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.

If you want to get really fancy with fourth edition;
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For wannabe street sams, superficial cybernetics are available that look like real cyberarms and legs at one tenth the price.
Quote
To hide your meat body, you can get modified cybernetic casings that make you appear augmented. Superficial cyberware can have some functionality like cyber spurs and blades, but they have to fit over the existing limb (items such as cyberguns or raptor cyberlegs cannot be included).
custom strength, custom agility, tough and non-invasive external limb augmentation. It exists.

Pretty sure that the custom strength and custom agility aren't things that would be considered "non-invasive" or superficial. To get augmentations to Strength or Agility normally requires replacing musculature. And also note, that even if it did all that, none of it enhances Reaction which is what this thread is trying to argue.