Author Topic: How do you buy restricted gear?  (Read 2001 times)

PretzelCoatl

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #15 on: (22:31:35/01-20-17) »
Yeah, the two implicitly contradictory rules cited by Slipperychicken and Xexanoth are exactly why I don't know how this works. :)

On the one hand, the first rule (cited by Slipperychicken) seems to imply that you can buy anything you want as long as you don't mind it being tied to you.

On the other, the second rule seems to imply that ONLY zero-availability items are available in this fashion.

From what I can determine, the only HARD rules are that zero-availability items are available all the time with no restrictions, and that getting items off the books requires the aforementioned checks. There is no actual explicit rule on how to get items with an availability rating through the legal system (in my interpretation, which could well be flawed).

Reaver

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #16 on: (23:03:13/01-20-17) »
Take a look at the "-" available items... many are what I call 'Vending machine' items, meaning you csn find them anywhere, anytime.
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firebug

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #17 on: (00:22:02/01-21-17) »
My interpretation is that the data trails are so troublesome that you don't even want to bother with them, to the point that they didn't make any provisions in the rules for bothering with them. And honestly, that makes a bit of sense to me; any good shadowrunner will be buying everything they possibly can with credstick exchanges alone, and it's not just because they don't want a trail in case the SIN gets burned, but in case anyone is keeping an eye on the SIN for any purpose of their own. Whether it's just harmless advertisement or them trying to pin down where you sleep at night, you don't want the corps to get ANYTHING on you.

Arguments of "it's what a good Shadowrunner does" don't work when players have free will and the characters are not all assumed to be experienced runners.

But, regardless, you do still leave a data trail.  That is part of what fake SINs are for; the books even mention that they accrue purchase history and the like.  When arguing about this kind of stuff, you need to keep in mind that those exist and what they are used for.

If you could buy things without making Availability tests at the risk of having to replace your fake SIN (because it started to attract attention), the rules would mention this.  That would be a huge part of purchasing things after creation, deciding "Do I need this rare thing bad enough to try and buy it legally and attract attention?  Or can I see if one of my contacts has the skill to find one on the black market?".  It wouldn't be something you had to infer, it would be explicitly mentioned.

Is it a good houserule?  Oh sure!  Flesh it out a bit (to determine the exact changes and when to roll to see if your SIN has burned for each purchase) and it would be a great houserule.  But it's definitely not how the base game works, as there's no way such a thing wouldn't be spelled out if it was intentionally an option.  It's just too big of a difference.
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Senko

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #18 on: (08:31:47/02-07-17) »
I have to admit I rather like slippery chicken and reavers reading of it. Lets say I'm a fully licenced mage with a nice day job earning me 120k for basically sitting in a building somewhere playing games and watching the trid because I've retired for running and gone legit with a nice little reward as thanks for something I did. Hence the luxury job package.

Now I want a new Nixdorf Sekretar its legal so I just pop online and order one it shows up the next day and I'm down the purchase price. Alternatively I don't want this comlink linked to my name and details just in case so I need to buy it from the black/gray market. This takes time and I have to hunt around not just to find the comlink I want but to ensure I wont be leaving a datatrail leading to my purchase under my bug out identity. The second example requires me to make the check because its not as simple as going online and hitting order because any site doing that is either a scam or asking to be hit by the local law enforcement instead I must look, I must bargain and only then can I buy. Even if its just buying a prepaid one under my fake ID I still need to find somewhere physical to pay with a credstick and provide the fake details for it.

Now we move up a bit I want to buy the Sony CIY-720. Its restricted so I can't just pop online and buy it as I don't have the right licences. So I need to do courses, I need to take tests, I need to be registered and only then can I buy one leaving a great big arrow pointing at me owning it. I don't really want that so I'm needing to do the check again. Only this time its even harder because I'm not just buying an item that's legal but untraceable rather I'm buying one that ilelegal ownwership can get you into trouble for. That means its not just a matter of finding the nearest dealer accepting cash I'm probably going to need a referal "Yeah there wont be trouble she's not a cop.", I need to physically meet in some out of the way place, I'll need to be careful its not a trap for me. All much more complicated.

Finally we have the F items. Doesn't matter what I do I'm only getting those if its issued directly for me as an employee of some major corp/government not something I could buy ever in my legal identity because I don't do that kind of work. So I need to find some way of aquiring them which will be less "I know a guy" and more "I know a shipment we need 10 men to run the play and steal some of those guns. Its risky and if we're caught we'll be handcuffed and shot in the back of the head while resisting arrest but if all goes according to plan we'll never need to run another job again."

At least that's how I see it.

Slipperychicken

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #19 on: (20:09:13/02-07-17) »
hmmm that's one interpretation of the rules, but taking:
Quote
Availability is an abstract amalgamation of factors like rarity, legality, distribution issues, supply, demand, and so on.
and
Quote
Standard items with no Availability rating can be purchased at your local Kong-WalMart, Stuffer Shack, or Microdeck, or perhaps ordered online or picked up from
a vending machine.

Seem to make it pretty clear that only items without availability can be purchased without having to make a check.
Why else would "no availability" be explizitly stated if everything else could be bough without the checks too, simply by risking a data trail and maybe questions.

In 2017 I can find shotguns, armored trucks, laptop components, and assault rifles for sale with a single search query. After jumping through any relevant legal hoops, I could have those things shipped to my home without even communicating with a human. That is clearly not a process that invokes my personal magnetism or ability to negotiate.

I have not seen anything in shadowrun lore to indicate that purchasing such things legally would be any more difficult than it is today.
« Last Edit: (20:12:50/02-07-17) by Slipperychicken »

Xexanoth

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #20 on: (09:41:11/02-08-17) »
Lore wise nothing prevents that,
But from the gameplay point there aren't any rules for it, and it would completely break "availabilty" as any item would be availability 0 when bought legally.
Availability is mostly there for game balance, so that a character can't just simply get everything he wants without having the right contacts.
As Adamo pointed out for some items it doesn't even make that much sense to have an availability rating in the first place, if you look at the lore.

So make some house rules if you want to do it.
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But it's definitely not how the base game works, as there's no way such a thing wouldn't be spelled out if it was intentionally an option.  It's just too big of a difference.




Sterling

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #21 on: (08:09:59/02-09-17) »

In 2017 I can find shotguns, armored trucks, laptop components, and assault rifles for sale with a single search query. After jumping through any relevant legal hoops, I could have those things shipped to my home without even communicating with a human. That is clearly not a process that invokes my personal magnetism or ability to negotiate.

I have not seen anything in shadowrun lore to indicate that purchasing such things legally would be any more difficult than it is today.

But Shadowrun isn't set in our 2017, its set in a 2078 (9?) where so much has changed, where supply is strictly controlled to prevent the masses from rising up, where the Corporations can and will ensure that just because a thing is legal doesn't mean its available to the average Joe on the street.

Its just not feasible to extrapolate from what we can or can't do today.  Try and put such thoughts aside, and instead put yourself into the mindset of simply trying to survive under the yoke of the Megas.
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Slipperychicken

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #22 on: (08:52:43/02-09-17) »

In 2017 I can find shotguns, armored trucks, laptop components, and assault rifles for sale with a single search query. After jumping through any relevant legal hoops, I could have those things shipped to my home without even communicating with a human. That is clearly not a process that invokes my personal magnetism or ability to negotiate.

I have not seen anything in shadowrun lore to indicate that purchasing such things legally would be any more difficult than it is today.

But Shadowrun isn't set in our 2017, its set in a 2078 (9?) where so much has changed, where supply is strictly controlled to prevent the masses from rising up, where the Corporations can and will ensure that just because a thing is legal doesn't mean its available to the average Joe on the street.

Its just not feasible to extrapolate from what we can or can't do today.  Try and put such thoughts aside, and instead put yourself into the mindset of simply trying to survive under the yoke of the Megas.

I'll consider it if I see anything in the lore to support the idea. Most of what I've seen in the rulebooks, especially run&gun and gun h(e)aven, suggests a thriving arms industry that shamelessly markets its wares to any yahoo with a license and some nuyen.

Also, "The Corporations" includes suppliers like Ares, which make their money by selling weapons, ammunition, and accessories to wageslaves and gangers alike.

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #23 on: (10:20:53/02-09-17) »
No, Ares survives by selling to Militaries, law enforcement, other mega corps, and governments.

The above don"t buy a single weapon, they buy crates of weapons!

The average ganger doesn't have the thousands of needed to buy an Ares weapon new. He has hundreds, which gets him a stolen or used weapon bought from a pawn shop or grey market dealer. (Its doubtful that ganger has a SIN to order from Ares directly anyways).

The private arms side of weapons sales has always been the smallest part of any weapon producer. (Even today).

Remmington's public sales account for less then 20% of their revenue: that accounts for both the hunting, collectors, personal defense markets. Their military supply contracts are where they make their money....
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Adamo1618

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #24 on: (09:27:32/02-10-17) »
Is there any reason why Contacts with Thermographic and Low-light vision would have availability 16? Lorewise that is. Same thing with Ebony Credstick. Or a Cyberskull. Etc.

These are perfectly legal items that don't exactly pose much of a threat, not niche enough to be unlisted on corporate websites. The corps want to sell and earn money. Why make them less accessible?
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Sterling

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #25 on: (10:06:36/02-10-17) »
Is there any reason why Contacts with Thermographic and Low-light vision would have availability 16? Lorewise that is. Same thing with Ebony Credstick. Or a Cyberskull. Etc.

These are perfectly legal items that don't exactly pose much of a threat, not niche enough to be unlisted on corporate websites. The corps want to sell and earn money. Why make them less accessible?

Because demand just isn't that high, so why bother manufacturing an overstock of goods only a few people might want. That leads to making a loss.

How many people want or need an ebony credstick in a world of wireless payment?

Why make contacts with both Thermographic AND Low-Light?

What proportion of a population will want to replace their skull outside of major accident damage?

Accessibility reflects the scarcity of supply, not just the hoops one must jump through to buy things.
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Novocrane

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #26 on: (16:40:27/02-10-17) »
Also worth considering that the default availabilities are for the default setting. (aka Seattle) If you go anywhere else (say ... Neo Tokyo) you can expect differences.

Reaver

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #27 on: (19:45:36/02-10-17) »
Also worth considering that the default availabilities are for the default setting. (aka Seattle) If you go anywhere else (say ... Neo Tokyo) you can expect differences.

Expect HUGE differences! Can't remember the 4e book, they said for England change the availability code of all firearms to (F). Meaning all guns are not legal for civilian ownership.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #28 on: (19:58:19/02-10-17) »
The Shadows in Focus: Sioux book has an entire section about the different availability for various items in the Sioux Nation.

And I actually spotted something that is pertinent directly to this topic: "anyone with a valid hunting license can purchase chameleon suits as if they were only Availability 10 (not Restricted)."

It outright says that having a valid license lets you purchase it legally, but still notes the availability as being 10. This heavily implies that you would still roll against the availability to determine delivery time.

Adamo1618

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Re: How do you buy restricted gear?
« Reply #29 on: (07:03:59/02-11-17) »
@Sterling
Scarcity still wouldn't keep legal items from being indexed online, would it?
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