[DeathofVirtue]

  So my rigger is a human but I have been aiding a friend in getting to grips with rigging and he went with a dwarf.

  This is something I will probably house rule on but I thought I would check in and see if you agree.

The rigger in question is a dwarf, his ride is NOT metahuman adjusted (R5.0 P170) so he would normally suffer a - 2 penalty to pilot tests.
HOWEVER it states in the description this is because "For trolls and dwarves, this means adjusting the position of vehicle controlls to fit their size"...

  The vehicle in question however has a removed manual controls mod (R5.0 P150), a rigger interface mod (R5.0 P171) and a rigger cocoon (R5.0 P155) all aftermarket, theoretically this removes the objects that needed to be tailored to a metahuman, specifically all the vehicle control interfaces and even seating, leaving nothing to be adjusted.

  Applying the penalty in this case seems rather nonsensical as the things that cause it are no longer present.

[Blue Rose]

Notice that this is a penalty that never existed before tucked away in the description of the piece of equipment that removes it.  That's called terrible formatting and design.

Most people just ignore the fact that the modification exists at all, and treat it as more a question of good sense.

[Decade Rider]

At the very least you can assume the vehicule he bougth came with it. Of course if he find a truck that was owned by Troll gangers later this might be a diffrent story. In my games however we tend to ignore that rule completely unless it makes no sense at all.

[DeathofVirtue]

  Yeah that was my impression I mean how the hell is not being able to comfortably sit and interact with physical controls going to effect a rigger who dives "into" the machine when according to cannon he/she is unaware of his/her meatbody while doing so.  Let alone when aftermarket mods remove those discomforts entirely but raw still states they take the penalty.

  I'll probably just ignore metahuman conversion except the glaringly obvious cases like pixies trying to drive a trolls ride or vice versa (Talk about a tight fit xD) .

  Thanks for the feedback.

[Kiirnodel]

Notice that this is a penalty that never existed before tucked away in the description of the piece of equipment that removes it.  That's called terrible formatting and design.

Most people just ignore the fact that the modification exists at all, and treat it as more a question of good sense.

Not true.

It is a rule that is in the core rulebook. Page 420, gear chapter. "Using Unadapted Gear"

It is however, a rule that is based on the increased Lifestyle costs for living as a Dwarf/Troll. One could assume that a Dwarf/Troll that has been appropriately paying their lifestyle costs get all gear properly adapted to them as part of their increased Lifestyle costs. The modification in Rigger 5.0 is for adding that modification to a vehicle post-production. Meaning that if that dwarf gets a car with a five-finger discount, off an enemy that no longer has need of it, etc. they need to modifiy the car to have it properly fitted to them.

Likewise, I've made riggers that have added the Metahuman adjustment to a vehicle to represent that some of the seating in a passenger vehicle is adapted to allow for Troll passengers (for example).


Also, to answer the original question. My ruling would be No, you do not suffer the gear size difference penalties while rigging/controlling a vehicle without manual controls. In those circumstances there are no controls to impose the penalty. At best, you could claim that the seats might be uncomfortable for a dwarf to sit in if they are "unadapted," but nothing more.

[Blue Rose]

Notice that this is a penalty that never existed before tucked away in the description of the piece of equipment that removes it.  That's called terrible formatting and design.

Most people just ignore the fact that the modification exists at all, and treat it as more a question of good sense.

Not true.

It is a rule that is in the core rulebook. Page 420, gear chapter. "Using Unadapted Gear"

It is however, a rule that is based on the increased Lifestyle costs for living as a Dwarf/Troll. One could assume that a Dwarf/Troll that has been appropriately paying their lifestyle costs get all gear properly adapted to them as part of their increased Lifestyle costs. The modification in Rigger 5.0 is for adding that modification to a vehicle post-production. Meaning that if that dwarf gets a car with a five-finger discount, off an enemy that no longer has need of it, etc. they need to modifiy the car to have it properly fitted to them.

Likewise, I've made riggers that have added the Metahuman adjustment to a vehicle to represent that some of the seating in a passenger vehicle is adapted to allow for Troll passengers (for example).


Also, to answer the original question. My ruling would be No, you do not suffer the gear size difference penalties while rigging/controlling a vehicle without manual controls. In those circumstances there are no controls to impose the penalty. At best, you could claim that the seats might be uncomfortable for a dwarf to sit in if they are "unadapted," but nothing more.

Except the penalties invented in the description of metatype adjustment are not the same as the penalties for using unadapted gear. Per core rules, an elf doesn't need a mod to keep from taking a penalty for using human sized gear.

[DeathofVirtue]

Also, to answer the original question. My ruling would be No, you do not suffer the gear size difference penalties while rigging/controlling a vehicle without manual controls. In those circumstances there are no controls to impose the penalty. At best, you could claim that the seats might be uncomfortable for a dwarf to sit in if they are "unadapted," but nothing more.

  In this case as I mentiond even the original seat is pulled out in favour of an aftermarket rigger cocoon.  There is literally nothing there that I can think of thats left to impose the penalty.

 I would also add even if the controls were still there and the seat was not replaced with a cocoon I would struggle to justify imposing this penalty on a rigger "dived in" to the device as all lore and fluff I'm aware of CLEARLY states the vehicle basically becomes the riggers body and they aren't aware of their meatbody.  So it logically follows that a penalty designed to show the driver isn't comfortable is completley irrelevant when they aren't aware of their meatbodys discomfort or even the body itself.

  This rule seems either really poorly worded, thought out or both.  To be honest I would love to see either a good reason why this rule should apply to a dived in rigger (Not some hastily made up bs to keep it applicable)  or an edit so it doesn't include dived in riggers just meatbody and datajack only drivers as it currently makes 0 sense in this context and I would argue contradicts a LOT of fluff/lore already laid down.

  Untill then I will just houserule it never applies to a dived in rigger, anyone who purchases a new vehicle gets it free for their metatype on that vehicle and at no mod points.

EDIT: Removed "Rigged in decker" *Facepalm*

[Kiirnodel]

DeathofVirtue, that is what I said. The penalty it is talking about is for using the physical controls. It doesn't apply when you aren't using them.

Blue Rose, the penalties are the same, they just added more. This isn't the first time new rulebooks have introduced more specific variations on existing rules.

Metahuman adjustment doesn't take up any mod slots, so yeah, giving it for free to meta buying new cars is reasonable. That is assuming they are buying from a dealer and can have the adjustment installed prior to purchase (or order one that has it already). This is Shadowrun, though, so don't be surprised if that junker you bought off the shady guy offering out rides at a discount (or better yet selling off stolen goods) is going to have all the options available. The mod is there to give you rules for installing it post-production.

[Blue Rose]

Blue Rose, the penalties are the same, they just added more. This isn't the first time new rulebooks have introduced more specific variations on existing rules.

However, such expanded rules should be in the expanded rules section.  Not in the descriptions of individual pieces of equipment.

[DeathofVirtue]

DeathofVirtue, that is what I said. The penalty it is talking about is for using the physical controls. It doesn't apply when you aren't using them.

Blue Rose, the penalties are the same, they just added more. This isn't the first time new rulebooks have introduced more specific variations on existing rules.

Metahuman adjustment doesn't take up any mod slots, so yeah, giving it for free to meta buying new cars is reasonable. That is assuming they are buying from a dealer and can have the adjustment installed prior to purchase (or order one that has it already). This is Shadowrun, though, so don't be surprised if that junker you bought off the shady guy offering out rides at a discount (or better yet selling off stolen goods) is going to have all the options available. The mod is there to give you rules for installing it post-production.

 

  Of course, my point was the rule is terribly described and applied.

Yeah I dont count purchases that "fell off a lorry" or from a junker as new so no issues there ^^.