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[SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?

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Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #90 on: <08-08-16/1641:58> »
I'm sure there are reasons why quality control and editing is so bad.  There have to be, right? 

But just because there are reasons, does not make the quality excusable. 

I cannot think of an instance of an RPG publisher so consistently messing up basic info, making horrible layout decisions, and even when intending to release a new edition with errata apparently sending the wrong version to the printer.  That includes going back to the '80's when people didn't have the fancy version controls they do now.  Sure, there were mistakes.  But it wasn't whole book riddled with mistakes.  It wasn't every new sourcebook that came out consistently having major issues. 

These are the sort of mistakes that after they catch you one time, I'd expect someone to take extra care to make fix it next time.  That obviously hasn't happened. 

It's not even a matter of skill and experience, someone doesn't care enough. 

MijRai

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« Reply #91 on: <08-09-16/0158:49> »
Something I haven't pointed out in a while is the fact that I've been in an writing/editing role before; first-hand, practical training and experience on lay-out, grammar, etc.  Were I putting out products with Shadowrun's editing quality as a first draft (much less higher up), I would have been reamed.  If I'd been proof-reading and editing such a product and let it pass my inspection to the next level at the current quality, it'd have been even worse. 

This is why I really can't accept the way things have been going down.  At some point, the work isn't being done.  There aren't any excuses, because said excuses have to involve 'I'm not doing my job because of _____.'  And if people aren't doing their jobs, there's a problem.  It has to be done correctly.  Whether it takes redoubled effort from those currently doing it or getting new people on the job, something has to happen.  The Errata team should be a good measure to treat the existing wounds, but it'll take more than that to keep the game from bleeding out from continued mistakes. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

tytalan

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« Reply #92 on: <08-09-16/0700:46> »
Something I do not want to say but CGL has to consider this.   What they has been doing can be consider to be damaging the brand name.  Why does this matter because TOP can break their license on these grounds.  Why would they well if some other company wants the license at similar terms with maybe a good down payment or just if TOP decides it can do better and make more of the profits.  And depending on the license CLG could lose everything they have written.    I’m not saying this is going to happen but CGL should think about this as part of their encouragement to do a better job. 

adzling

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« Reply #93 on: <08-09-16/1401:00> »
Mij rai's comments are on point IMHO.

Something needs to change at the top to ensure the future success of Srun.

It's very disconcerting it's gone on so long and has not been addressed which makes me thnk folks have their heads in the sand.

This stuff is not difficult, it just takes dedication and some modicum of resources/time be dedicated to it by someone who knows what they are doing.

tytalan

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« Reply #94 on: <08-09-16/1559:55> »
All this talking got me digging out some of my 3rd edition books and man the differents is night and day
Examples
Rigger's 3 revised  just short of 200 pgs with only about 50 pgs of vehicle discriptions the Atchule Rigger rules
Rigger's 5 the reverse 50pgs rules 150 pgs vehicle
I don't even know how to compare data trails to Matrix but I can say that Data Trails is a fail
So what am I getting at is if we can't get what we really want in the books we should at the very least have good quality in the books we are getting

Sir_Prometheus

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« Reply #95 on: <08-10-16/1731:04> »
So thinking on it a bit, I've seen fan projects, open source volunteer projects that have better version control.  9th age (what the warhammer players did when GW blew up Fantasy) comes to mind. 

bull30548

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« Reply #96 on: <08-13-16/0206:39> »
You know I don't post on here too much anymore it really not worth it anymore.  People just want to rail and complain about things.  Now in this case is the complaint valid? Yes, so continue on with the railing if you need to.  However, I do not see the seeking of knowledge simply just outrage.  So perhaps it is better instead of yelling into the vast blackhole that is the internet, I wish to try another approach.

AJ: You state that this process is being looked into as to what happened on this reprint?  Can perhaps you can inquire as to how the process goes?  Perhaps that can alleviate some of the confusion here.

Patrick: Perhaps you can expand on what it is you are working on in the errata section to help explain why this is a slow process in getting these fixes faster?

Everyone else: As I said if you feel like complaining about this product reprint that is your right.  However, I am pretty sure every point has been made that there is seriously something wrong in this reprint.

I actually was very amused by people saying, "Well, this could be better," or "why was this missed?" and my favorite so far is "the fan sites can/are doing it better!".  I always get amused by this because the fan sites usually 'playtest' their rules within whatever website, forum board, or actual play they may be running it through.  If game balance is achieved, hooray, if not the rule is quickly amended or even deleted from the site never to be seen again in that format.    There is also the fact that a new book could come out that completely takes what that fan site has developed and completely turns it on its head because the developer being a few months ahead as far as rules development actually has an idea of how those rules will interact with later rules.  The other thing that often happens with these fan sites is they fade from memory.  They become obsolete and unused, a great example is a website a friend of mine developed for a game system to help new players get oriented.  I think he last updated it in 2002 when the last book came out and the company folded up to rebrand as something else.  That was 14 years ago website still there getting a little traffic in fact it getting a lot with a recent reprint being done by the rebrand company but it isn't where it was.  Why? The company fixed some of the errors helped people out with a better introduction to the game.  Mind you I still like the fan sites too and I go over and I play by their rules then I come back to the written rules, problems and all, because I am a decent GM and fan.  In fact, I can tell all those on here are too because of the posts being so heated.  You are passionate about SR, which is wonderful,  I hope people keep enjoying it for many years.

GM Guy
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AJCarrington

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« Reply #97 on: <08-13-16/0753:13> »
AJ: You state that this process is being looked into as to what happened on this reprint?  Can perhaps you can inquire as to how the process goes?  Perhaps that can alleviate some of the confusion here.

Gladly.

MijRai

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« Reply #98 on: <08-13-16/1409:45> »
Bull, the reason the Errata process is going to be slow to start is because it only just started quite recently.  There was no coordinated Errata process I know of until Patrick volunteered to do so in the last month or so, and he's had to build the apparatus for it.  We've started working on the Errata, and hopefully we can churn things out at a regular pace.
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

bull30548

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« Reply #99 on: <08-13-16/2354:24> »
Well, I was talking about the reprint process and how it seems like everyone is upset that the errata that is currently known did not make it into said reprint.  I appreciate the information but I was already aware of that because I listen to podcasts and do pay attention on here I just don't post often.  I was merely trying to get some answers to the questions, that as far as I could tell, no one simply asked.  AJ has answered he is looking into it and I am satisfied with that answer.  To be perfectly honest considering that GenCon was literally wrapping up a week ago.  I am not expecting anything for a few more weeks.  I will point out that I do not remember seeing any original print copies of Street Grimoire at Gen Con in any of the shops but I wasn't looking that hard so even a normal reprint makes sense since this book was, if I remember right, the first supplement to come out only a few months after the hardback copy of SR5 had came out.  In fact I remember purchasing it as well as Street Grimoire at my local convention.  Anyway thank you AJ I will patiently await the response.  And MijRai and Patrick please take your time I prefer good thorough work and am understanding that such things take a great deal of time.
GM Guy
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #100 on: <08-14-16/1049:18> »
Oh, that. For me, that's easy: I wasn't involved at the time. I didn't know there was going to even be a reprint until about the same time you guys did.

There were, apparently, more errata gathered from somewhere that were folded in (I think Wakshaani and ... Nightmare? Nightshade? Nightsomethingorother, he's contacted me but my brain's all mushy right now ... gathered the new stuff); I'm working on getting hold of that and getting the existing errata sheet updated. Onve that's done, while there's nothing I can do about the physical printing, I will be pushing to get all the errata folded in and a corrected PDF out into the wild ASAP.
Former Shadowrun Errata Coordinator

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #101 on: <08-14-16/1200:38> »
[Street Grimoire] was, if I remember right, the first supplement to come out only a few months after the hardback copy of SR5 had came out.
Not quite. SR5 was released on 2013-09-25, and the first core supplement to be released was Run & Gun on 2014-04-09. Street Grimoire was the second core supplement, and it was released on 2014-06-30.

Books released before Street Grimoire include Assassin's Primer, Coyotes, Gun H(e)aven 3, Runner's Toolkit, Stolen Souls, Bullet's and Bandages, and various adventures (Splintered State, SRM05-01 and -02).

wraith

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« Reply #102 on: <08-14-16/2013:06> »
AJ: You state that this process is being looked into as to what happened on this reprint?  Can perhaps you can inquire as to how the process goes?  Perhaps that can alleviate some of the confusion here.

Gladly.

Appreciate it, AJ.  I think a lot of us are just frustrated with how this sort of thing keeps happening, so some idea on why would help a lot.

AJCarrington

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« Reply #103 on: <08-14-16/2212:56> »
As soon as I get some more info, I'll be sure to pass it along.

However, I think it's worth pointing out this *this* doesn't happen very often...at least as far as I can remember. There was the reprint issue with the core rule book, but that was a conscious business decision based on getting tit reprinted as quickly as possible. When the third printing came out, the edits and changes were there.

I know that there have been issues related to proofing, editing, etc., but they're not the same (IMHO).

Again, as soon as I have more info, I'll pass it along.


wraith

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« Reply #104 on: <08-14-16/2249:39> »
However, I think it's worth pointing out this *this* doesn't happen very often...at least as far as I can remember. There was the reprint issue with the core rule book, but that was a conscious business decision based on getting tit reprinted as quickly as possible. When the third printing came out, the edits and changes were there.

I think what was most frustrating about that whole debacle is that many of the community had been pointing out errors in need of errata from the time the PDF version of the rules got in our hot little hands in July of 2013.  To the tune of something like four pages by the time the first printing even hit store shelves in September.