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Author Topic: Lockpicking  (Read 2307 times)

Coyote

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #30 on: (18:15:30/05-07-16) »
Oh, one more option for getting through a conventional maglock with the power cut off, if it's set to fail locked.

Wait forty hours or so for the battery backup to die.

That is not how the "fail-closed" bolts work... if the power is cut off, they close, and they will only open if there is power (and they're unlocked by a command). Battery backup would only allow them to open when the main power fails, IF the command to open is given. And when battery backup also runs out, they will never open until power is restored (and, again, the command is given).

Also, I think that in the SR universe, where life is cheap and data is valuable, it would be less likely that safety concerns would triumph over security, thus "fail-closed" bolts would be more common than in our universe. Also, in our world, we don't really have a problem where a hacker comes by and hacks into locks (or their power sources) holding secure areas secure, like they do in SR, so again we're not as concerned with security as with safety. When I put those together, what I come up with is that "fail-closed" bolts are going to be pretty common in a lot of high-security areas in SR. Heck, they may even be the default type of lock.

MijRai

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #31 on: (18:19:29/05-07-16) »
Well, there's one thing more important than security, Coyote; profit.  If your workers surviving to work another day is cheaper, you want fail-open.  If your insurance costs become astronomical, fail-open might be a way to make it cheaper. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Blue Rose

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #32 on: (18:27:08/05-07-16) »
Oh, one more option for getting through a conventional maglock with the power cut off, if it's set to fail locked.

Wait forty hours or so for the battery backup to die.

That is not how the "fail-closed" bolts work... if the power is cut off, they close, and they will only open if there is power (and they're unlocked by a command). Battery backup would only allow them to open when the main power fails, IF the command to open is given. And when battery backup also runs out, they will never open until power is restored (and, again, the command is given).

Also, I think that in the SR universe, where life is cheap and data is valuable, it would be less likely that safety concerns would triumph over security, thus "fail-closed" bolts would be more common than in our universe. Also, in our world, we don't really have a problem where a hacker comes by and hacks into locks (or their power sources) holding secure areas secure, like they do in SR, so again we're not as concerned with security as with safety. When I put those together, what I come up with is that "fail-closed" bolts are going to be pretty common in a lot of high-security areas in SR. Heck, they may even be the default type of lock.
When I say "conventional," I mean like the most common kind today. A modern maglock is an electromagnet holding a door shut. I'm not talking about the type Reaver described, where the electromagnet pulls the locking bolt out.

Reaver

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #33 on: (00:34:09/05-08-16) »
Blue Rise is right, most would be a simple magnetic field device instead of a selinoid driven system.

First off is cost. They are infinately cheaper, and can hold a lot of weight before being forced open. (Governed by the magnetic field).
They are quick to activate, as an electro magnetic field is almost instant. (Close enough, its measured in trilliths of a second!). With the only disadvantage being brown outs and power failure. (Battery back-ups will hold for a time).

Compared to selinoid driven, which has a mechanical factor to it, which makes it slower to engage, disengage. (Measured in thounsandths of seconds). Are expensive to operate (takes much more power to retract the bolts, and hold them closed). Not to mention the increased costs of both the door and surrounding walls and frame. However, you are not getting through them without specialized tools, and a lot of time, or catastrophic damage.

These things are used on things you DON'T want opened, unless you HAVE to open it... So not your standard employee door.

●●●●

But, in the world of SR, the selinoid door may show up more then you think..... depending on just how cruel your corps are.


●●●●●

On a side note for you more technical minded out there, and as some posted some building codes, know that those codes are incomplete.

"Hospitals" is a general term for any structure that provides surgery, heathcare and long term recovery. There are more specialized rules for more specialized care facilities.

So, depending on the emergency, doors will open or lock as needed to contain said emergency. This would all be controlled from a master system that ties a number of services for the building, such as HVAC, fire control, door control, security alarms, various monitors, transmitters, indicators and other specialized functions.

For example, in many labs that operate with contagious agents operate under a double door negative pressure environment. This is to stop any agents from leaving the area as when a door is opened, the positive pressure outside "blows" the agent back into the room.
However, in the event of a fire: the first door SEALS (even with people inside) and the second door can be opened, creating a "fire break". Mean while, HVAC to the room is completely cut off, and suppression is engaged.

Guesome for the workers, yes. But those proceedures aren't there for their safety.... but for everyone else.

Same goes for most sensitive buildings..... what happens is determined by the control systems laid out for the building.... HOWEVER: a fire alarm is generally the only thing that ever overrides a building lock down. (Unless like in my above example, the fire protocol dictates something else).


Not such a bad idea to bring that decker along, and find that building spider now is it?
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AwesomenessDog

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #34 on: (11:44:52/05-08-16) »
As a point to the futility of the argument for regular lockpics to be necessary for maglocks, sequencers and key cards already exist. When rather expensive ways around a maglock already exist, it is clearly not intended that a $200 trinket be an alternative. If you want to argue that a locksmith's kit would already have some basic picks inside of them, that's fine but that doesn't mean that those fragile pics will do anything but shock you when you try it on a maglock or other circuitry system.

Herr Brackhaus

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #35 on: (12:01:41/05-08-16) »
Invalid argument, AwesomenessDog. There are two ways to bypass maglocks; one is opening the case and tampering with the internals, the other is using tools like sequencers and key card copiers.

A sequencer still requires the case to be opened, a copied key card does not.

adzling

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #36 on: (15:04:54/05-08-16) »
And lock picks don't help you in either of those scenarios.

So awesome's argument has merit.
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MijRai

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #37 on: (23:05:29/05-08-16) »
Or, you need some lockpicks to open the case; I mean, do you really just let the panel be opened by a couple screws, or do you use a mechanical lock as a secondary security measure to keep folks out? 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Reaver

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #38 on: (02:40:09/05-09-16) »
Or, you need some lockpicks to open the case; I mean, do you really just let the panel be opened by a couple screws, or do you use a mechanical lock as a secondary security measure to keep folks out?


Generally?

6, t8 1/4- 20 Torx screws. Along with a pressure switch so IF the cover is opened, a LOUD alarm goes off. (this would be the anti-tamper circuit mentioned in the book)

The 6 Screws allow for an impact resistance to the casing (usually high grade aluminium 16 gauge or less), while not presenting a weak spot for target. (Such as the old 'bike key' locks you still se around thermostats... Which just require a simple "lock punch" to remove...... basically a good hammer and round punch will do. Removed enough of them in my time)

:P

<Here is a way to look at it. If it meant to be opened only a few times, (such as at install, for upgrades, repairs) you  bolt or screw it closed. ESPECIALLY with any solid state or electronic circuitry. Dust, moisture, and heat are the biggest killers of electronics..... Followed only by harmonics and voltage spikes.) If it is going to be accessed more frequently, you lock it.

Anytime there is a lock, there is a portal, thus there is weak point, which is usually the lock, the hinge or the frame of the portal. With screws or bolts, you are actually binding to structural elements of the case, making the entire unit more sturdy. <Use bolts and capscrews for heavier objects, or high counter torque situations.> 

 What is a Torx? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx#/media/File:Torx_screw.JPG That's a Torx screw
« Last Edit: (02:42:08/05-09-16) by Reaver »
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Kincaid

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #39 on: (09:47:57/05-09-16) »
Is it weird that I really enjoy reading Reaver's posts about doors?  In any event, I really enjoy reading Reaver's posts about doors (and industrial economics, but that's a separate thing).

My own reading of things is that lockpicks don't work on maglocks.  Each sub-type of maglock has a dedicated piece of gear that can be used to overcome it (keypads = sequencer, print scanner = cellular glove, etc.) in case no one in the group has the Locksmith skill, but the skill itself is universally applicable.
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adzling

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #40 on: (09:57:27/05-09-16) »
We use pin-in-torx t10s ;-)

There are also some specialty screws you can get that have a unique keyway that stops the screw being removed with anything but the very specific, custom, unique driver.

Those are typically used in areas you cannot secure (like outdoors in unattended areas).
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Jack_Spade

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #41 on: (10:33:00/05-09-16) »
If everything else fails, a miniwelder does 25P DV. That's enough to cut through everything not made of hardened stuff like blast bunkers.
A well placed monofilament chainsaw has only 16 AP -6 but with the bonus of not setting things on fire.

Between those two tools you generally can open any door you happen to come across.
Not to mention Ork/Troll adepts with their smashing blow ability...

A more sophisticated solution would be cheapish cyberdeck modded for Sleaze and that nice induction module that allows you to create direct connections by placing it on top of the device. Add a high level Agent and you can do that without involving a decker.
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Beta

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #42 on: (11:10:02/05-09-16) »
I run a one player game, with the PC shaman using a stable of NPC’s as needed depending on the job.  One of the NPC’s was designed as an intrusions expert (good locksmithing (with all the gear), somewhat specialized decking, all the stealth, climbing, perception).  After the first couple of runs we accidentally discovered the joys of a strong silence illusion covering a monofilament chainsaw :D  (Occasionally with levitation added in to reach somewhere less armored).  Haven’t used the NPC’s locksmithing much since then …. (decking for dealing with cameras is still useful, of course.  Even if you are invisible, the hole in the door/window/wall isn’t).

AwesomenessDog

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #43 on: (21:53:12/05-10-16) »
Invalid argument, AwesomenessDog. There are two ways to bypass maglocks; one is opening the case and tampering with the internals, the other is using tools like sequencers and key card copiers.

A sequencer still requires the case to be opened, a copied key card does not.
Not what I said. I said both of the methods you restated are methods to crack a maglock, jabbing the thing with a shaped piece of metal isn't beyond real life common sense because those two methods already exist.

AwesomenessDog

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #44 on: (21:57:14/05-10-16) »
Anytime there is a lock, there is a portal, thus there is weak point, which is usually the lock, the hinge or the frame of the portal. With screws or bolts, you are actually binding to structural elements of the case, making the entire unit more sturdy. <Use bolts and capscrews for heavier objects, or high counter torque situations.> 
Also worth pointing out that if you are getting by a mag lock, you probably don't care about the little dinky lock except in the most covert of runs so you will likely just use bolt cutters on the smaller mechanical lock or some other smash and grab tool.