Author Topic: Lockpicking  (Read 2638 times)

Reaver

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #15 on: (18:05:08/05-05-16) »
I'm going to ask the question:

DO you even know what a maglock is and how it works????

I ask because the idea of a lockpick or autopicker working on a maglock is comical to those with actual knowledge....


Like 'Flintsone car" funny....
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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #16 on: (19:44:47/05-05-16) »
I'm going to ask the question:

DO you even know what a maglock is and how it works????

I ask because the idea of a lockpick or autopicker working on a maglock is comical to those with actual knowledge....


Like 'Flintsone car" funny....

Do you know what a lockpick in 2075 is and can do?   I mean, with the wonders of nano tech.... ;-)

I grant you that I also assume a lockpick is not that different from now, but it doesn't say that anywhere....

adzling

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #17 on: (20:26:35/05-05-16) »
I already tried inserting real life descriptions here reaver, it's not relevant apparently so let's let this thread die

I'm going to ask the question:

DO you even know what a maglock is and how it works????

I ask because the idea of a lockpick or autopicker working on a maglock is comical to those with actual knowledge....


Like 'Flintsone car" funny....
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Herr Brackhaus

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #18 on: (21:36:43/05-05-16) »
Sendaz
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Reaver
To be fair, you're not picking the maglock itself but rather the control circuits. The writers decided to equate "picking" such a lock to what is arguably more of an electronics/hardware skill, at least to my mind, but Locksmith is the skill used so there it is.

If I remember correctly, though, you're an engineer, right? Question: would a modern day maglock default to a lock state if you cut power to the lock and/or building, including any potential backup power generators? Just curious, as that seems like both an ideal security feature and a great way to trap someone who happens to be on the inside.

For what it's worth, I posted the question in the Missions FAQ thread; at least from a Missions perspective it would be good to have insight in what the rules are not only for tools needed but if the method for bypassing keypads and card readers also work on biometrics, voice, and facial recognition systems. Ultimately, we can argue semantics all day long but at the end of the day we're talking about abstract game mechanics in a fictional setting, not real life mechanical and/or electrical engineering.
« Last Edit: (21:44:49/05-05-16) by Herr Brackhaus »

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #19 on: (21:45:17/05-05-16) »
Real trolls use their horns.

Hobbes

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #20 on: (23:34:31/05-05-16) »
Question: would a modern day maglock default to a lock state if you cut power to the lock and/or building, including any potential backup power generators? Just curious, as that seems like both an ideal security feature and a great way to trap someone who happens to be on the inside.


Real life Mag Locks unlock when a signal is passed through them.  It's easier (requires less force anyway) to destroy the wall the door frame is mounted in.  I'm 90% sure the default state is locked if the power is cut.  Running power is required to open the lock. 

Hospitals use Magnetically sealed doors around the Maternity wards to stop folks from running off with Babies.  If you're standing by the door you can hear the current kick in to unlock them.  Given that Hospitals have generators taking out power requires some effort.  I'm not sure what the protocol is to open the doors when there are multiple power failures.  Axe would be my guess tbh, or breaching charge if a tactical team was on site for a real FUBAR situation. 

Blue Rose

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #21 on: (00:30:18/05-06-16) »
A maglock uses an electromagnet to hold the door shut.

An electromagnet requires an electrical current in order to operate; otherwise, it no longer holds the door shut.  If the sole sources of power are the city's electrical grid and a generator, then when power goes away, the door is unlocked.

A maglock has a third source of power, which is fundamental to its operation.  A battery.

When power goes away, the default state of the battery in the absence of voltage applied by the city grid/generator is to discharge, sending current to power the electromagnet and hold the door shut.  In conjunction with a positive-signal to unlock, the door is secure.  The battery on modern home security maglocks lasts 40-60 hours on loss of power.

If you want to "pick" a locked maglock once it's lost power?  You have options.

2) Bring your own power supply.

I'm actually surprised some sort of big portable battery or small portable generator isn't a stock piece of gear.  Do some hardware finagling to access the tender parts, and you could counter the battery with a voltage of your own. though if you can do that, the next option's probably more practical.  You could send the positive signal yourself to unlock the maglock. 

3) Cut the battery's connection

If you could access the battery, all you'd have to do is sever the connection from the battery to the electromagnet without killing yourself.  Of course, the battery of a maglock is generally well-protected.

4) Short the battery

If you could access any part of the power line for the battery, you also have the option of shorting it out, so that current isn't going through the electromagnet anymore; it's going through the low-resistance path you just created.

Do keep in mind this low-resistance path results in super high currents, and heat generation is proportional to current squared, and when the chemicals in a battery get hot enough, they have a bad habit of exploding.

5) Safety override

A maglock that fails shut is great for security.  It's also horrible for safety.  The megacorps may not care MUCH, but it's hard to get away with leaving your employees to die horribly, screaming in a fire concurrent with a loss of power.  As such, there is almost always an override for egress.  This override is usually on the side you WANT to be on, not the one you ARE on, but if you're trying to get the frag out, it's a useful option.

6) Step to the right and smash

As mentioned, a locked maglock door is often incredibly tough.  However, while one reinforced wall is cheap, reinforcing every wall in a room to the same degree is expensive.  Step to the right and go Kool-aid man and smash through the wall instead of the door.

Does not work well for vaults.

7) Brute force

A low-end modern maglock shuts with about a third of a ton of force.  A high end modern maglock is over a ton.  We'll say 1200 kg equivalent force (I'm not using Newtons) to make a nice, round number.

Lifting and carrying is in increments of 15kg.  1200kg / 15kg = 80.  Let's say for the purposes of opening this maglock, if you're using a crow bar, you're using Strength x 2 instead of Lifting & Carrying.  Now, if your team has three strength 10 orcs and trolls all using crowbars on the maglock at the same time, since the crowbars let us start with a baseline of 15kg per point of strength, and we're doubling strength, we can say they exert a baseline force of 900 kg equivalent force.  If, all together, they can manage another 20 hits, then they can straight up pry open that maglock through brute force, but it is one monumental feat.

A low-end maglock would be more on the order of 300 kg equivalent force.  If you have a Lifting & Carrying of 20, you could do it barehanded without rolling.

Reaver

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #22 on: (01:12:08/05-06-16) »
A maglock uses an electromagnet to hold the door shut.

An electromagnet requires an electrical current in order to operate; otherwise, it no longer holds the door shut.  If the sole sources of power are the city's electrical grid and a generator, then when power goes away, the door is unlocked.

A maglock has a third source of power, which is fundamental to its operation.  A battery.

When power goes away, the default state of the battery in the absence of voltage applied by the city grid/generator is to discharge, sending current to power the electromagnet and hold the door shut.  In conjunction with a positive-signal to unlock, the door is secure.  The battery on modern home security maglocks lasts 40-60 hours on loss of power.

If you want to "pick" a locked maglock once it's lost power?  You have options.

2) Bring your own power supply.

I'm actually surprised some sort of big portable battery or small portable generator isn't a stock piece of gear.  Do some hardware finagling to access the tender parts, and you could counter the battery with a voltage of your own. though if you can do that, the next option's probably more practical.  You could send the positive signal yourself to unlock the maglock. 

3) Cut the battery's connection

If you could access the battery, all you'd have to do is sever the connection from the battery to the electromagnet without killing yourself.  Of course, the battery of a maglock is generally well-protected.

4) Short the battery

If you could access any part of the power line for the battery, you also have the option of shorting it out, so that current isn't going through the electromagnet anymore; it's going through the low-resistance path you just created.

Do keep in mind this low-resistance path results in super high currents, and heat generation is proportional to current squared, and when the chemicals in a battery get hot enough, they have a bad habit of exploding.

5) Safety override

A maglock that fails shut is great for security.  It's also horrible for safety.  The megacorps may not care MUCH, but it's hard to get away with leaving your employees to die horribly, screaming in a fire concurrent with a loss of power.  As such, there is almost always an override for egress.  This override is usually on the side you WANT to be on, not the one you ARE on, but if you're trying to get the frag out, it's a useful option.

6) Step to the right and smash

As mentioned, a locked maglock door is often incredibly tough.  However, while one reinforced wall is cheap, reinforcing every wall in a room to the same degree is expensive.  Step to the right and go Kool-aid man and smash through the wall instead of the door.

Does not work well for vaults.

7) Brute force

A low-end modern maglock shuts with about a third of a ton of force.  A high end modern maglock is over a ton.  We'll say 1200 kg equivalent force (I'm not using Newtons) to make a nice, round number.

Lifting and carrying is in increments of 15kg.  1200kg / 15kg = 80.  Let's say for the purposes of opening this maglock, if you're using a crow bar, you're using Strength x 2 instead of Lifting & Carrying.  Now, if your team has three strength 10 orcs and trolls all using crowbars on the maglock at the same time, since the crowbars let us start with a baseline of 15kg per point of strength, and we're doubling strength, we can say they exert a baseline force of 900 kg equivalent force.  If, all together, they can manage another 20 hits, then they can straight up pry open that maglock through brute force, but it is one monumental feat.

A low-end maglock would be more on the order of 300 kg equivalent force.  If you have a Lifting & Carrying of 20, you could do it barehanded without rolling.

Yep. To a point.

There is an other form of maglock, A polarity driven bolt system. When current is applied, the bolts are open and the chamber can be unsealed. No current, bolts pop up into a slotted frame system to secure the chamber.***

***Please note the language I am using here. NDA prevents me from giving explicit examples (but the language should).



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« Last Edit: (01:14:51/05-06-16) by Reaver »
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Blue Rose

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #23 on: (01:26:29/05-06-16) »
So this.

Interesting.

Bringing your own battery would work here, if you could get to the power supply, probably better than it would for the conventional magnetic locks we have today.

There is always, of course, breaking the individual bolts with a miniwelder, but... even that's gonna take a while, even if you know where to cut.

MijRai

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #24 on: (02:49:52/05-06-16) »
Another trick for maglocks that seal shut only when active; open the case, take a tag eraser, brick the device.  You destroy it, it can't keep powering the magnets, it opens.  Depends on interpretation of maglocks, but a fun option nonetheless. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Xexanoth

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #25 on: (05:25:03/05-06-16) »
Do you know what a lockpick in 2075 is and can do?   I mean, with the wonders of nano tech.... ;-)

I grant you that I also assume a lockpick is not that different from now, but it doesn't say that anywhere....

yes it does:
Quote from: Core Rulebook, page448
Lockpick set: These mechanical burglary devices have undergone only slight improvements in the last several centuries. They are necessary tools for picking locks.

especially when combined with the autopicker:
Quote from: Core Rulebook, page447
Autopicker: This lockpick gun is a quick and effective way of bypassing mechanical locks.

it becomes a stretch to say that lockpicks work on electronic locks.
« Last Edit: (05:28:55/05-06-16) by Xexanoth »

Sendaz

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #26 on: (05:29:52/05-06-16) »


Real life Mag Locks unlock when a signal is passed through them.  It's easier (requires less force anyway) to destroy the wall the door frame is mounted in.  I'm 90% sure the default state is locked if the power is cut.  Running power is required to open the lock. 

Hospitals use Magnetically sealed doors around the Maternity wards to stop folks from running off with Babies.  If you're standing by the door you can hear the current kick in to unlock them.  Given that Hospitals have generators taking out power requires some effort.  I'm not sure what the protocol is to open the doors when there are multiple power failures.  Axe would be my guess tbh, or breaching charge if a tactical team was on site for a real FUBAR situation.
Um no.... the default position for most places, including hospitals is unlocked should power fail, simply as a Health & Safety issue.

Quote from: excerpt from requirements for Hospital secured doors
1.Staff can readily unlock the doors at all times.
2.Provisions shall be made for rapid removal by remote locks; keying all locks to keys carried by staff at all times; or other such reliable means available to staff at all times to open the locked doors.
3.A total smoke detection system is provided throughout the locked space or locked doors can be remotely unlocked at an approved, constantly attended location within the locked space.
4.The building is protected throughout by an approved supervised automatic sprinkler system.
5.The locks are electrical devices that fail safely so as to release upon loss of power to the device.
6.The locks release by independent activation of smoke detection described previously or water-flow switch activation for the automatic sprinkler system.

Now for corporate secure zones, this may be reversed, high security places the R&D lab should go into lockdown in case of power loss for containment purposes, but the normal exit doors on the exterior of the building should usually unlock to allow staff exiting and firemen entering.
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Hobbes

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #27 on: (09:50:07/05-06-16) »
Excellent, now I know for the next time I need to break out of a Maternity ward   :P

Sendaz

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #28 on: (11:56:20/05-06-16) »
Excellent, now I know for the next time I need to break out of a Maternity ward   :P
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Blue Rose

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Re: Lockpicking
« Reply #29 on: (16:13:19/05-07-16) »
Oh, one more option for getting through a conventional maglock with the power cut off, if it's set to fail locked.

Wait forty hours or so for the battery backup to die.