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Author Topic: Rigger 5 Errata  (Read 34509 times)

Wakshaani

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #30 on: (06:35:16/12-20-15) »
Quote from: Drones, Enduring Downgrades pg. 123
Furthermore, no matter how many Downgrades you make, you only receive a single extra Mod Point.
Am I reading this correctly? You can only get +1 MP for a drone total, no matter what you reduce and how far? That seems overly limited to me.

That was intentional, to keep people from shredding "unimportant" stuff like Acceleration and Sensors to strap more guns to something. This freed up some imbalanced designs, knowing that they couldn't be "gamed" into a radically different shape as people sat down and tried to over-efficient things. (Take a Cheetah, drop it to Speed 0, save from teh Acceleration, and now you have 6 points to...) A tad harsh, but needed to allow for things like the Cheetah to exist. GMs could drop that rule, but should be *very* wary of it!

In general, you're better off finding a drone that you don't need to modify as heavily to do what you need. :)

Quote
Also, I can't figure out how moveable drones with 0 Speed are supposed to be. As least the kind that are not Immobile. For example, can the Condor still reposition itself by slowly floating to a new position?

There's a difference between Speed 0 (putts along gradually) vs Speed - (doesn't move at all) ... ground-based Speed 0 drones move at about 15 KPH, while Rotor drones move at about 30 KPH and are going to lose any type of pursuit tests against even a Speed 1 target... even Metahumans can outrun them, but they *do* move. Immobile drones can turn in place (like turrets) or have moving parts if needed for what they do (The Job-o-Mat Barrista has a small door that opens and closes... while closed, it drops a cup, fills it, then the door pops open so that the drink can be taken, then it closes again) but beyond that, they don't move at all.

So, yes, the Condor can gradually reposition itself, but if it gets too windy, it won't be able to hold position. Then again, the Condor can idle over/near alocation for days, even weeks in good conditions, allowing you to gather gobs of data. Cheks and balances! FInding the right tool for the job is going to be important for Riggers!

Wakshaani

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #31 on: (06:37:41/12-20-15) »
The Matilda has Pilot 2 but comes with Targeting 3. Since autosofts are limited by pilot, this wouldn't work..

This should be a Pilot 3 drone. (Typo!)

Wakshaani

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #32 on: (06:48:50/12-20-15) »
On that note, this feels like a completely insane nerf on a category of gear that was already underpowered. I personally don't understand the reasoning behind it, nor the logic of having Pilot and Autosoft both max out at a rating of 6 when the average Metahuman can get the equivalent scores (Attribute + Skill) up to 12 or higher. It's incredibly hard for me to believe that with 60 more years of robotics research, the world of 2075 is still developing robots and drones that are inherently worse at performing a task, even one they are specifically designed for, than a skilled person, especially by such a huge margin. A completely mundane human can hit a dice pool of 20, while the most advanced drone in the world will never have higher than 12.

Chalk it up to the first Crash, which eradicated virtually every computer on Earth, a second Crash, and corporations having collusion and research that goes beyond that being kneecapped by Shadowrunners.

From a more game-centric view, if drones are better at everything than Metahumans, why not have them do everything? Why have Deckers when a Hacking Drone beats them in every category? (4th ed ran into this, HARD, when people started summoning Task Spirits who were better at programming than any Metahuman that ever was, or would, be. FastJack being trashed in the Matrix by a Shaman with a stick just stinks, you know?) ... This is why Skillwires can't get as good as Metahuman skill potential, for instance.

This also gives the Rigger some choices ...she can let drones handle things on their own, where their dice pools are limited, or take manual control for when they want to really focus on a task. You can see this with Tater Tot in the chapter fiction ... she lets her Proletariat handle minor repairs while she's otherwise occupied, but takes over for the important stuff. A Rigger with 6 drones that are rolling 6-8 dice won't dominate a gametable like one with the same number dropping 12-15 dice. THAT Rigger doesn't need to bother with a team.

So, there ya go. A little look behind the curtain. :)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #33 on: (06:52:03/12-20-15) »
So this book gave riggers a lot of new options, but made most of the options worse than before? Unexpected direction.
Then again, the game didn't need a second summoner, I suppose.

If we use the drone mod rules, can we still use vehicle mods on them that aren't detailed in the drone section?
If an anthroform is equipped with a cyberweapon, will it still use a melee soft for unarmed like a metahuman, or will it need a special soft for that?
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Wakshaani

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #34 on: (07:07:39/12-20-15) »
So this book gave riggers a lot of new options, but made most of the options worse than before? Unexpected direction.
Then again, the game didn't need a second summoner, I suppose.

There's debate about the 'made worse' ... it depends on if your game was allowing a drone to use Autosofts of higher Rating than its Pilot or not.

You can now get a Smartgun mod, which you previously couldn't do, and increase your Pilot, which increases the Rating of the other Autosofts you can use, you can now run *more* Autosofts than before, and, of course, you can upgrade the drone's armor, attributes, guns, etc.

More options, even if one path was closed off.

Quote
If we use the drone mod rules, can we still use vehicle mods on them that aren't detailed in the drone section?
If an anthroform is equipped with a cyberweapon, will it still use a melee soft for unarmed like a metahuman, or will it need a special soft for that?

Yup, but note that many Vehicle mods are too big to fit. (Dones also only have a single category of Mod Points, rather than several. Hard to fit a lot of changes in there!)

An Anthroform with a melee weapon would use the proper Autosoft. (The Skillset Autosoft includes some melee options.)

(Anthroforms might get looked at for some rule-trickery later. A Rigger that steps into one *technically* uses Gunnery for any weapon, even if it's just using  a pistol, an SMG, or whatever. My personal feeling is that a built-in weapon would use Gunnery, while one you picked up and used would use the 'proper' skill, like PIstols, Automatics, etc. Buuut, that one'll go up to the rules team, I'd think.)

Jack_Spade

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #35 on: (07:14:25/12-20-15) »
I'm actually positive that autopilot drones came out stronger than before: Target device, Swarm and the ability to upgrade pilot rating make it very easy to give your drones a high dice pool

One thing I'd like to have clarified: Are those new matrix actions only meant for RCCs or could you execute them with also with a commlink or a deck (without the dice pool bonus for Noise Reduction, obviously)?
talk think matrix

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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #36 on: (08:03:58/12-20-15) »
it depends on if your game was allowing a drone to use Autosofts of higher Rating than its Pilot or not.
Well, neither; Riggers were seen as completely useless in every group or game I was in so far.
And while I think RCCs unable to run a universal clearsight autosoft is a nerf, I definitely welcome the options;
I was thinking about making an AI using Drones as it's "Runner-Avatar", and I just might now.

Should actual questions, instead of genuine mistakes, be posted in the rules section? Like the ones I posted on page 1? They are not technically one for the Errata Document.
... Also, why no native Walker vehicle? We got a skill for that, after all.^^

Edit: At the missile Defense system, it says "In game turns", I think it means "terms".
And how much space does a microdronerack take?
« Last Edit: (10:41:40/12-20-15) by UnLimiTeD »
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

MijRai

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #37 on: (11:37:20/12-20-15) »
A number of Drones use Pilot Walker, UnLimiTeD.
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #38 on: (11:51:44/12-20-15) »
Well, but no vehicle, unless you mod it.
If there's Biped Combat drones, wouldn't some rich guy ask for his very own mecha to impress the neighbours with?
Probably along the same level of "lemon", but just saying.  ;)
« Last Edit: (11:59:04/12-20-15) by UnLimiTeD »
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Fweeba

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #39 on: (13:05:59/12-20-15) »
Hello, I just wanted to ask how exactly the new speed ratings for drones (Like the difference between 2G, 2W, 2J, etc.) relate to speed in combat meters per turn, for dealing with non vehicular enemies?

My biggest source of confusion comes with figuring out the movement rate of anthropomorphic drones, and I'm not sure if I'm just being an idiot and missing something, or what.

I'd assume that the speed table in core isn't used, since that very quickly can end up with vehicles moving at four times the speed of sound, at speed rating 10 (Something surprisingly easy to hit in some scenarios.) But, even if it did, I'm not sure how the different categories of speed (G, W, etc.) would apply to it.

Thanks for reading, any help to solve this would be appreciated, since it's got me very confused.

Wakshaani

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #40 on: (13:28:58/12-20-15) »
Originally, the Speed rating and KPH had no connection; Speed was an arbitrary rate for chases while KPH was left unmentioned or generalized. (This was during the writing of  core) ... the KPH bit was addeded near the end of the process, but, it didn't click. (As noted, ground cars breaking the sound barrier = facepalm).

As such, if you wanted, you could use the Drone rates (Ground = 30 KPH, Rotor = 60 KPH, Jet = 600 KPH, Water = 15 KPH) * Speed to get a 'realistc' speed. (Thus, a Speed 4 car could go up to 120 KPH, while a Speed 4 Rotorcraft would be going 240 KPH) ... that's unofficial, but  know the original writer of the core speed was grumbly about the KPH tack-on. :)


Beta-Max

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #41 on: (16:53:35/12-20-15) »
One thing I'd like to have clarified: Are those new matrix actions only meant for RCCs or could you execute them with also with a commlink or a deck (without the dice pool bonus for Noise Reduction, obviously)?

Jack, it says at the bottom of that Electronic Warfare paragraph...
"All of the following actions are Matrix actions. Yes, you can use them if you’re not a rigger."

I would say that indicates you can use them on any commlink or deck. It should be noted like in my earlier post. I received a response about the typo in "Confuse Pilot" it is supposed to say Data Processing, not Attack.

HiddenBoss

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #42 on: (17:03:38/12-20-15) »
One thing I'd like to have clarified: Are those new matrix actions only meant for RCCs or could you execute them with also with a commlink or a deck (without the dice pool bonus for Noise Reduction, obviously)?

Jack, it says at the bottom of that Electronic Warfare paragraph...
"All of the following actions are Matrix actions. Yes, you can use them if you’re not a rigger."

I would say that indicates you can use them on any commlink or deck. It should be noted like in my earlier post. I received a response about the typo in "Confuse Pilot" it is supposed to say Data Processing, not Attack.

What about suppress noise and target device? that only says RCC in the text.

Ryo

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #43 on: (20:50:14/12-20-15) »
From a more game-centric view, if drones are better at everything than Metahumans, why not have them do everything? Why have Deckers when a Hacking Drone beats them in every category? (4th ed ran into this, HARD, when people started summoning Task Spirits who were better at programming than any Metahuman that ever was, or would, be. FastJack being trashed in the Matrix by a Shaman with a stick just stinks, you know?) ... This is why Skillwires can't get as good as Metahuman skill potential, for instance.

This also gives the Rigger some choices ...she can let drones handle things on their own, where their dice pools are limited, or take manual control for when they want to really focus on a task. You can see this with Tater Tot in the chapter fiction ... she lets her Proletariat handle minor repairs while she's otherwise occupied, but takes over for the important stuff. A Rigger with 6 drones that are rolling 6-8 dice won't dominate a gametable like one with the same number dropping 12-15 dice. THAT Rigger doesn't need to bother with a team.

So, there ya go. A little look behind the curtain. :)

I can understand that argument, but Catalyst ran in the exact opposite direction. It is now a case of 'If drones are worse at everything than Metahumans, why have them do anything?'

To get a single drone up to 6 Pilot and 6 skill not only isn't possible at character creation, but it costs 20,000 nuyen and an Availability roll of 24F (which is basically in 'good luck with that' territory), plus 1200 nuyen per skill. That doesn't even count the cost of the drone. And let's not forget that Drones are inherently more fragile than metahumans, having 6 + (Body/2) hit boxes, and the number of drones that have armor even comparable to a metahuman can be counted on one hand. Even in this book, I don't see a single drone that has more armor than an Armored Jacket, other than three Drones that are so large I'm not sure why they're not qualified as vehicles, namely the Ares KN-Y series. The picture makes those things look like tanks, and considering they have no room for passengers, you'd think they'd be incredibly durable. And yet they have the Armor of a Roadmaster combined with the Body of a Motorcycle. A flimsy motorcycle, at that.

It is laughably easy to one shot 90% of the drones that exist. Thanks to the way Damage has been increased across the board in 5th, I've done it with a hold-out pistol. Seriously, the weakest gun in the game does 6P + net hits, which is already enough to one-shot every drone smaller than Medium, and most of the Mediums to boot. Even the Steel Lynx only has 9 boxes of damage, and resists damage with 18 dice. An Ares Alpha with APDS cuts 6 dice out of that, down to 12 dice. Assuming an average roll of 4 hits, The Steel Lynx will only survive a single shot of 12 damage or less. Too bad the Ares Alpha does 11P + net hits damage, so assuming it hits at all, it's doing 12 at a minimum. But lets not forget how bad Drones are at dodging, thanks to their terrible dice pools.

Drones are just all around a terrible investment. They are prohibitively expensive, ridiculously fragile, and inherently inferior to all alternatives. I was expecting Rigger 5 to mitigate that problem, but it only seems to have made it worse. I fully expect the riggers I play with to continue writing off drones entirely, and invest solely in vehicles. The only drones worth buying are the mini and micro flying drones to use for aerial overwatch and recon, something that is out of the way and never gets close to combat. There is no such thing as a combat drone in 5th edition.
« Last Edit: (20:52:55/12-20-15) by Ryo »

RiggerBob

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Re: Rigger 5 Errata
« Reply #44 on: (07:26:52/12-21-15) »
Regarding drone modification, especially armor:

The text says i can increase an attribute by 1 (or 3 for armor) without using a modpoint. And i can decrease an attribute by 1 (3 for armor) to get a mod point.
So 3 points of armor seem to be worth 1 mod point/other attribute...

"Increasing an attribute further than that requires the expenditure of mod points equal to the increase  minus  1."

Should that read "equal the increase minus 1 (3 for armor)" or "equal the increase (divided by 3 for armor)" or both?


Then there's the part about not being able to incease an attribute higher than twice it's base rating. And armor being limited to 3x body before it starts to reduce handling/speed/acceleration.

Does the second rule replace the first one for armor or is it an additional limit (that would nearly never be used^^)?


Let's say i want to equip my trusted roto-drone (bod 4, armor 4) with armor 10.

a) it costs 5 modpoints (increase -1)
b) it costs 3 modpoints (3 points for free, then 3 additional ones)
c) it costs 1 modpoint (3 points for free, 1 modpoint per 3 armor afterwards)
d) it's impossible (because 10 > 2x  base armor)


PS: Do i get a point of handling/speed for the Ares Paladin when reducing it's armor to 15 as it breaks the armor = 3x body rule in it's standard configuration?

PPS: Typo "EJECTION SEATS: Remember that time when there was an annoying or, in the back and you wished you could just push a button and fire him out of the vehicle?"
« Last Edit: (07:49:32/12-21-15) by RiggerBob »