[Dwagonzhan]

I know the meta-lore stuff Reaver...it doesn't mean I like the ideological meta-box they're stuck in though.
It's my issue more than the games in that case, and I freely admit that.

[ZeldaBravo]

(and to be honest, I can't think of the last time someone wanted an equine or Bovine shifter.... )

There is at least one reason to play Bovine shifter - you get to be a Troll with a Meta C priority (unless that was errata'd or something).

[Kiirnodel]

Personally, I don't let the Called Shot: Vitals bypass Regeneration automatically. It specifically says in the called shot description that it is there for when you are targetting one of a number of vital areas for extra damage (brain, heart, or major arteries). Only one of those locations is enough to stop regeneration, so I've never felt like just making that default -4 called shot should be an automatic you got a head-shot situation.

When we've had conversations about it, my group has discussed things like, making it an additional penalty to specifically be calling for the head-shot to prevent Regeneration. Or potentially requiring a specific number of net hits to make it a good enough hit to do the same.

Personally, I do, because it's RAW and makes sense in game and out of game: Mundanes have an enormous uphill battle against magic. There is no need to strengthen that side. Infected are enough of a hassle as they are. Regeneration on those vampires/wendigos/dzoo-noo-quas/banshees needs a counter balance beyond magic damage.

A stake to the heart and a shotgun blast to the head are staple solutions to the undead.

So, ceterum censeo: Fuck vampires.

I don't remember seeing anything RAW that says that Called Shot: Vitals bypasses Regeneration.

The list of vital locations that are suggested in the Called Shot is much longer than the list of locations that prevents Regeneration. The Called Shot doesn't say "pick one of these locations" and attacks are abstracted on hit locations to the point that targetting a specific body part is a separate called shot (with higher penalties).

The Neck, for example, is where one of those major arteries mentioned in Called Shot: Vitals is, but the Neck location is a -8 called shot.

Here is a quick idea I came up with, using the same format as the Location Called Shots...

Target Location: Head/Brain; Attack Modifier: -8; Max DV: None; Potential Effects: Critical Wound, Brain Damage
Critical Wound: For the cost of one net hit, increase the final DV by 2, this effect can be selected multiple times (up to half the skill Rating of the attacker), Brain Damage: The attack causes traumatic brain damage. This not only causes the Regeneration critter power not to function, but also potential side-effects if the target survives. This effect costs 2 net hits to select.

[Jack_Spade]

p.400 core
"Regeneration can’t heal everything. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, a called shot to the head) can’t be healed this way"

p.195 core
"Vitals: Standard ranged attacks are assumed to be aiming center mass (human torso, car engine, etc.) to allow for maximum chance to hit while also focusing on vital areas for damage. Calling a shot to increase damage means the shooter is aiming for a particularly vital area of the body, such as the brain, heart, or major arteries."

Brain may be the only thing called out in both quotes explicitly, but the spinal cord certainly is a vital area too (and a rather large one at that). Therefore, I don't see a reason to increase the penalty when vitals shot is already clearly defined as shooting at a more vulnerable area of the body like the head. If you can hit the brain with a -4, the spinal cord shouldn't be that much harder.

There is no need to gimp mundanes even more when every magic user gets to stop regeneration without any effort at all.

[Kiirnodel]

Brain may be the only thing called out in both quotes explicitly, but the spinal cord certainly is a vital area too (and a rather large one at that). Therefore, I don't see a reason to increase the penalty when vitals shot is already clearly defined as shooting at a more vulnerable area of the body like the head. If you can hit the brain with a -4, the spinal cord shouldn't be that much harder.

There is no need to gimp mundanes even more when every magic user gets to stop regeneration without any effort at all.

I'm saying that Called Shot: Vitals doesn't guarantee head-shot. Combat is abstracted such that hit locations are not specified. The Vitals could just as easily be a better shot at the heart in the middle of combat.

The problem is there is no "called shot to the head" like regeneration mentions.

[Jack_Spade]

That's only a problem if you are actively trying to disallow triggering the weakness of regeneration and you are arguing that the head or the spine is not a vital area.

Because I can assure you: If you are aiming at the brain you are not suddenly equally likely to hit the heart or an artery - at least not more likely than if you are just shooting center mass (Actually you have a good chance to hit the heart by shooting center mass as the heart is a lot more to the middle than most people think).

[FancyDerek]

How about Run & Gun...

There actually is a shot to the head and it's more than a -4 DP, which is why saying the core called shot automatically bypasses regeneration shouldn't happen, IMHO. On the other hand it should have a chance to do so... I'd go with a 50/50, but that's just me.

[Glyph]

(and to be honest, I can't think of the last time someone wanted an equine or Bovine shifter.... )

There is at least one reason to play Bovine shifter - you get to be a Troll with a Meta C priority (unless that was errata'd or something).

Even better, you get to be a troll (or minotaur) with 4 special Attribute points with a Meta C priority, meaning you can either start with an Edge of 5, or pick D for adept and still have a Magic of 6.  Sure, it costs 25 of your starting Karma, but it's more than worth it.

[Jack_Spade]

How about Run & Gun...

There actually is a shot to the head and it's more than a -4 DP, which is why saying the core called shot automatically bypasses regeneration shouldn't happen, IMHO. On the other hand it should have a chance to do so... I'd go with a 50/50, but that's just me.

You are mistaken. R&G has a long list of mostly useless locations to shoot, but none of them is head or brain or spine or heart. Also, they seem so hart to hit because they purposefully limit the amount of damage you do. Either that or the list is just expression of terrible game design. 

Ankle
Ear
Eye
Foot
Forearm
Genitals
Gut
Hand
Hip
Jaw
Knee
Neck
Shin
Shoulder/Upper Arm
Sternum
Thigh

[Xexanoth]

You are mistaken. R&G has a long list of mostly useless locations to shoot, but none of them is head or brain or spine or heart. Also, they seem so hart to hit because they purposefully limit the amount of damage you do. Either that or the list is just expression of terrible game design. 

To be fair, the point of the Run and Gun Called shots are the Secondary Effects, and for you StreetSam/GunBunny to show of.
They are situtional and more for roleplaying than efficency, but are pretty awesome when you can use them.
... also, hitting people in the genitals will never stop being funny.

The limited damage can also be used when trying not to kill an unarmored target or not to knock out someone you really need to interrogate right now.

[Achsin]

(also damage from silver weapons can be regenerated as long as the silver weapon isn't stuck in him.)

A bit late to the party, but this part isn't true, or rather it would be if they didn't also have Vulnerability (Silver). Vulnerability increases the DV from attacks made with the substance by 3DV and prevents that damage from being healed with regeneration. Depending on interpretation, the allergy bit just means that you might also not be able to regenerate anything while exposed to allergens (and Ghost help you if you're also even mildly allergic to pollutants or sunlight in that case).

Called Shot (Vitals) is pretty nasty if it bypasses regeneration with the added benefit of +2DV, but not really more deadly than against someone without regeneration aside from characters who rely more on their ability to quickly recover damage than on armor. The -4 penalty is pretty useful for helping to dodge shots from all but the more skilled opponents (or snipers, curse them). If you feel that's too strong vs regeneration, removing the +2DV might help offset it. I'd been thinking of proposing either that or a new Called Shot (Brain) for -6 that just prevents the attack from being regenerated if it does Physical damage.

We also ruled that Regeneration doesn't work against damage caused by toxins, though maybe changing it so you get to add Magic to the toxin resistance test but still not regenerate the damage might be a better middle-ground.

[Hobbes]

Regeneration in 5th edition isn't that great.  The handful of combats I've had either as a Player or GM it didn't matter at all.  All the regenerators are down at the end of a turn and someone simply stands over the pile of goo and keeps shooting or stabbing until the pile of goo stops healing.  So unless there is some outside time or tactical factor where spending 6 seconds standing in place isn't feasible the critter dies anyway. 

I guess if you didn't know Werewolves and Vampires regenerate it may be a surprise, but c'mon....

(Back in first or second edition we found out the hard way Megaladons regenerate, that was extremely unpleasant.  We really needed a bigger boat.) 

[Dwagonzhan]

[spoiler]REGENERATION

This power allows rapid healing of any damage a critter has taken.
At the end of each Combat Turn, if the critter has any damage on either of its Condition Monitors, it makes a Magic + Body Test, adds its Body to the number of hits scored, and heals that many boxes of damage, first from Physical overflow, then from the Physical damage monitor, and finally from the Stun damage monitor.

If the critter has exceeded its Physical overflow damage, it’s not dead yet. It still gets a Regeneration Test. If, after this test, its Physical overflow still exceeds its Body, then it’s really dead[/spoiler]

Having read the minutia for Regeneration in SR5...it is quite bad with damage being as high as it is. In lethal scenarios, Regen might as well not exist UNLESS the Regenerating target also has gobs of tankiness already.
For subduing scenarios however...being able to refill stun boxes that quickly makes specialized precautions necessary (don't just bring the usual handcuffs and duct tape, is what I'm saying).

[Jack_Spade]

@Hobbes
That works if you are facing only one regenerator. But if you have disturbed a nest of vampires you really need every need a way to stop them from getting back up again with one or two shots. (Sadly/Luckily, werewolves no longer have regeneration, turning them rather into a joke against anyone with decent ini and a FA capable weapon

@Dwagonzhan
As you say, regeneration becomes more powerful the higher the body value is. A scrawny BOD 3 guy is easy to take down, but a Wendigo with BOD 8 or god forbid a Dzoo-noo-qua with 10 usually is up and running at the beginning of the next turn. If you add armor to the mix that turns regular attacks to stun you are pretty much hosed.
Annoyingly, a large cross section of Strain I infected turn out to be mages or adepts, able to boost their BOD attribute. That's usually when the TPK starts...

[Kiirnodel]

As others have mentioned, the Called Shot: Vitals already gives bonus damage, it simply seems odd to me that it could be used to bypass an otherwise (supposedly) powerful ability. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a way to bypass or stop regeneration, the power specifically says that there is a weakness. The only thing I'm saying is that exploiting that weakness shouldn't be folded into the vitals called shot for free.

The closest I found when I looked over the location called shots in Run & Gun to something that was meant to be a kill-shot was the Neck location. This (presumably) represents basically slitting someone's throat. The damage limit was high (DV 10), and it causes the target to bleed out. Similarly, the Gut shot is also fairly high (DV 8), although it causes a "slow death" which tells me that it is meant to have the target suffer slowly...

The "Head Shot" that I made up a couple posts back uses a similar set up to those, but I removed the DV limit, and the extra effects are specifically designed to increase damage. The concept being that it is used in place of Called Shot: Vitals. Rather than increasing the DV up-front, it uses the net hits to scale up the damage faster, and the idea was that it costs a couple of net hits to "lock in" the damage and prevent regeneration. I chose a penalty of -8 rather than -6, because the head seems like a harder target than a person's gut.