[Dwagonzhan]

Shifters have Regen

Also you could wear critter armor from Howling Shadows.

Thank goodness. If you weren't going to say it, I was.

Regeneration is crazy overpowered in SR5. Unless you're inflicting damage that is magical or hitting that Silver vulnerability, it takes a lot of straight up overflow to put a shifter down for good.

And it's a good thing they have that available, because without Regen Shapeshifters are absolutely terrible mechanically.

[Jack_Spade]

Actually no. All it takes is a Called Shot Vitals to take them out:
p.400 core
"Regeneration can’t heal everything. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, a called shot to the head) can’t be healed this way"

p.195 core
"Vitals: Standard ranged attacks are assumed to be aiming center mass (human torso, car engine, etc.) to allow for maximum chance to hit while also focusing on vital areas for damage. Calling a shot to increase damage means the shooter is aiming for a particularly vital area of the body, such as the brain, heart, or major arteries."

[Reaver]

True Jack.

But one has to be aware they are facing a Shifter first.... which isn't always the case. Shifter may have a 'tell' that alerts the observate that they are not human, but in the day and age of extreme body mods and implantations, those 'tells' can get lost.

Not to mention hard to see with clothing and armor on during a gunfight....


Course, they start shifting in combat, or get up after getting splattered by a half dozen rounds, people figure out you're 'different' right quick

[Jack_Spade]

Eh, my characters tend to shoot at vitals anyway - as the old saying goes: A stake to the heart works wonders against vampires... and everybody else too 

[Dwagonzhan]

Actually no. All it takes is a Called Shot Vitals to take them out:
p.400 core
"Regeneration can’t heal everything. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, a called shot to the head) can’t be healed this way"

p.195 core
"Vitals: Standard ranged attacks are assumed to be aiming center mass (human torso, car engine, etc.) to allow for maximum chance to hit while also focusing on vital areas for damage. Calling a shot to increase damage means the shooter is aiming for a particularly vital area of the body, such as the brain, heart, or major arteries."

Oh well, never mind!
Regeneration is utterly useless then, given how everyone and their brother can get a Smartlink.

[Xexanoth]

No, it just moves it from stupidly overpowered to kind of overpowered.
First you need to be able to hit him which can be hard on a combat adept, then you still have to inflict Physical Damage for it to count as Vital Damage,no matter how good you aim, as long as you can't get through the armor it doesn't matter(also damage from silver weapons can be regenerated as long as the silver weapon isn't stuck in him.)

Generally most normal enemies will be completely outdone by regeneration,as they simply don't have the dicepools to reliably deal lasting damage to a shifter. The Smartlink may help offset the penalty for called shots, but the dicepools aren't that great to beginn with, and if he wears armor, just forget it.

Of course other Runners and HTR/Elite Units are another matter. But then again, thats the case for every character.

[Dwagonzhan]

With a Smartlnk, the DP penalty for a Called Shot is at absolute worst, -2; that's not a big change outside of the weakest regular encounters.
Of course, it's predicated on how big of an asshole your GM is willing to be to neuter your big advantage, and how much armor Mr/Ms Yiffers is packing.

(how many rent-a-cops aim for the heart or head?)

[Reaver]

With a Smartlnk, the DP penalty for a Called Shot is at absolute worst, -2; that's not a big change outside of the weakest regular encounters.
Of course, it's predicated on how big of an asshole your GM is willing to be to neuter your big advantage, and how much armor Mr/Ms Yiffers is packing.

(how many rent-a-cops aim for the heart or head?)

Well... look at it this way the 'average' rent-a-cop is rolling 6 dice. (3 Agility, 3 Skill).
Smartlink gives a +2 for 8 dice...

So called shot puts him back 6 dice... which on average means 2 hits...

So again, the 'average' rent a cop, thug, jerk-with-a-gun is not much of a threat to any combat runner much less a shifter.


But you get flashy with your shifting or your regeneration, then expect people to head shot, use magic, grenades and other non-regenative options.

[Kiirnodel]

Personally, I don't let the Called Shot: Vitals bypass Regeneration automatically. It specifically says in the called shot description that it is there for when you are targetting one of a number of vital areas for extra damage (brain, heart, or major arteries). Only one of those locations is enough to stop regeneration, so I've never felt like just making that default -4 called shot should be an automatic you got a head-shot situation.

When we've had conversations about it, my group has discussed things like, making it an additional penalty to specifically be calling for the head-shot to prevent Regeneration. Or potentially requiring a specific number of net hits to make it a good enough hit to do the same.

[忍]

With a Smartlnk, the DP penalty for a Called Shot is at absolute worst, -2; that's not a big change outside of the weakest regular encounters.
Of course, it's predicated on how big of an asshole your GM is willing to be to neuter your big advantage, and how much armor Mr/Ms Yiffers is packing.

(how many rent-a-cops aim for the heart or head?)

Well... look at it this way the 'average' rent-a-cop is rolling 6 dice. (3 Agility, 3 Skill).
Smartlink gives a +2 for 8 dice...

So called shot puts him back 6 dice... which on average means 2 hits...

So again, the 'average' rent a cop, thug, jerk-with-a-gun is not much of a threat to any combat runner much less a shifter.


But you get flashy with your shifting or your regeneration, then expect people to head shot, use magic, grenades and other non-regenative options.

Why would a rent-a-cop have an implanted weapon with smartlink?

Wireless: A wireless smartlink provides a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using gear with a smartlink or +2 if you’re using an augmentation for which you paid Essence.

[Novocrane]

I like the net hits idea. This is talking about shooting someone in the brain or spine - major events that the character isn't going to be walking away from, and probably should be burning edge to survive.

[Jack_Spade]

Personally, I don't let the Called Shot: Vitals bypass Regeneration automatically. It specifically says in the called shot description that it is there for when you are targetting one of a number of vital areas for extra damage (brain, heart, or major arteries). Only one of those locations is enough to stop regeneration, so I've never felt like just making that default -4 called shot should be an automatic you got a head-shot situation.

When we've had conversations about it, my group has discussed things like, making it an additional penalty to specifically be calling for the head-shot to prevent Regeneration. Or potentially requiring a specific number of net hits to make it a good enough hit to do the same.

Personally, I do, because it's RAW and makes sense in game and out of game: Mundanes have an enormous uphill battle against magic. There is no need to strengthen that side. Infected are enough of a hassle as they are. Regeneration on those vampires/wendigos/dzoo-noo-quas/banshees needs a counter balance beyond magic damage.

A stake to the heart and a shotgun blast to the head are staple solutions to the undead.

So, ceterum censeo: Fuck vampires.

[Xexanoth]

With a Smartlnk, the DP penalty for a Called Shot is at absolute worst, -2; that's not a big change outside of the weakest regular encounters.
Of course, it's predicated on how big of an asshole your GM is willing to be to neuter your big advantage, and how much armor Mr/Ms Yiffers is packing.

(how many rent-a-cops aim for the heart or head?)

Well... look at it this way the 'average' rent-a-cop is rolling 6 dice. (3 Agility, 3 Skill).
Smartlink gives a +2 for 8 dice...

So called shot puts him back 6 dice... which on average means 2 hits...

So again, the 'average' rent a cop, thug, jerk-with-a-gun is not much of a threat to any combat runner much less a shifter.


But you get flashy with your shifting or your regeneration, then expect people to head shot, use magic, grenades and other non-regenative options.

Why would a rent-a-cop have an implanted weapon with smartlink?

Wireless: A wireless smartlink provides a dice pool bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using gear with a smartlink or +2 if you’re using an augmentation for which you paid Essence.

also called shot is -4 not minus 2 so he would be back 4 dice, not 6(unless i missed a rule somewhere)

and to go away from the rent-a-cop, even going with the Tier 4 enemy from the Core Book, he has 10 dice, now lets actually give him cybereyes, he would be at 12, -4 thats 8 dice, not a hard obstacle to overcome as a Combat Adept even if he shoots salvos.
and by fluff, those are the enemies a "normal" runner tends to encounter until an alarm goes of or he has a hard(and well paying) mission.

otherwise im with Jack_Spade, regeneration is more than strong enough, especially against weaker enemys, no need to make it even stronger. Anyone that can actually hurt you, won't have a problem ending you with overflow damage in a single combat round anyways.
It's pretty much much the same problem as with "Hardened armor/Spirits" where it's either completely OP or just a slight boon depending on the combatants.

[Dwagonzhan]

also called shot is -4 not minus 2 so he would be back 4 dice, not 6(unless i missed a rule somewhere)

and to go away from the rent-a-cop, even going with the Tier 4 enemy from the Core Book, he has 10 dice, now lets actually give him cybereyes, he would be at 12, -4 thats 8 dice, not a hard obstacle to overcome as a Combat Adept even if he shoots salvos.

Which has the unfortunate side-effect of putting the Shapeshifter into the same narrow design box that Drakes are stuck in: Combat-Adept/Mage or Bust.
Granted, that was pretty much a given, seeing how:
A) Nearly all their relevant abilities tie into combat.
B) They're reliant on that MAG score. (and shifters who want augmentations are reliant on getting delta-grade; which is basically impossible outside of GM fiat or one article via the Restricted Gear quality)

Shapeshifters can make for a cool unorthodox RP character, but they're pretty terrible outside of dedicated infiltrator or combat builds.
(and I even have a Kitsune Decker in my game currently; using Trodes)

[Reaver]

Well, they ARE a magical "mutation" of their original species, thus they have to follow the magical rules framework that has been established for 5 editions and almost 30 years.

And lets face it, the animal kingdom is not all sunshine, snowflakes, hugs and kisses. It is a brutal, kill or be killed, Predator and Prey world where you either kill to eat, or are killed to be eaten.... thus most animals (and their magical subspecies) fall into one of two categories:;

They have killing potential.
They have Fleeing potential.

(Fight or Flight)

Which in SR translates into combat or infiltrator... and when we look at the list of known Shifters. only 2 of the 10 are not outright predators (Equine and Bovine), But even those 2 have been known for aggressive temperments among some breeds. (and to be honest, I can't think of the last time someone wanted an equine or Bovine shifter.... )


In short, you want to play a magical race, your bound by the rules of magic. Magic and tech don't mix.