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Author Topic: Vibrosword vs Monosword  (Read 9308 times)

psycho835

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #15 on: (03:22:31/04-01-15) »
*snip*

I didn't say I worked with swords at all. I didn't even say the Shadowrun stats were justified in any manner. I'm just saying that Katanas and Swords are not the same. They do not handle the same way, they do not cut the same way; they should not have the same stats. It's their group's choice though, so it's whatever.
No, they don't. Scimitar, machete, longsword, wakizashi, jian and seax (which BTW is a fraggin' KNIFE) also don't handle the same way. And yet, they all get the same stats as the generic sword. Furthermore, as Magnaric mentioned, katanas might slice flesh like butter but they SUCK against armored targets. So why the frag do they have the same AP modifier as monosword?! >:(

P.S.
Western longsword vs katana is one of those debates that will rage on forever.
German longsword FTW. Sword, short spear and warhammer in one? YES, PLEASE! ;D
« Last Edit: (03:27:12/04-01-15) by psycho835 »

Lucean

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #16 on: (03:32:43/04-01-15) »
It's ok for me that a Katana is better than a Sword as far as stats are concerned. The former is a two-handed weapon while the latter can be used with the Two-weapon attack martial art which puts it at the same Accuracy and +1 DV while having one less AP. So often enough better than the Katana.

Sabato Kuroi

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #17 on: (05:31:34/04-01-15) »
Two-handed style : Katana, Claymore/Nodachi
Two weapon style: Monosword


The Wyrm Ouroboros

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #18 on: (01:17:43/04-02-15) »
8-bit, Magnaric, you're on the same side; settle.  (Magnaric, you might want to check who you're quoting before replying.)

I didn't ... say the Shadowrun stats were justified in any manner. I'm just saying that Katanas and Swords are not the same. They do not handle the same way, they do not cut the same way; they should not have the same stats. It's their group's choice though, so it's whatever.
No, they don't. Scimitar, machete, longsword, wakizashi, jian and seax (which BTW is a fraggin' KNIFE) also don't handle the same way. And yet, they all get the same stats as the generic sword. Furthermore, as Magnaric mentioned, katanas might slice flesh like butter but they SUCK against armored targets. So why the frag do they have the same AP modifier as monosword?! >:(

Because you read and responded to one part, 'they don't handle the same', and ignored the critical part - they don't cut the same way.  And the reason they don't cut the same way is found in how they're made.

Removing the wakizashi from your list*, you find that with the possible exception of the jian, all your weapons are single-steel weapons; they are generally forged from one piece of steel, sharpened, and given a hilt.  The jian is essentially the same, albeit with two softer, more flexible plates protecting the brittle center of a harder 'edge' plate.  This sort of construction - one type of steel for the entire blade - may result in a good blade, but it also results in a clean-cutting blade.  The folded katana and wakizashi, using steel of different qualities, results (for all intents and purposes) in an edge that is, well, kind of jagged at the microscopic level; each steel quality wears different, so you wind up with something that cuts cloth and flesh just by being drawn across them.

Are they handled differently?  Yes.  A scimitar is a slashing and chopping weapon, made for a cleave as much as an opportunistic sweep.  A machete is a straight-out chopping item - more a tool than a weapon.  A longsword is made to cut/chop, battering the opponent as much as cutting through some pretty damn serious defenses.  A seax is made to stab.  A jian is made to flex, and that flexing is part of its weapon use.  The katana is made to cut, not chop, and because of the way it is made, it is very, very good at cutting.

* - A wakizashi is a 'short sword' that gets the stats of a 'long sword', meaning it's a step up from the standard short sword.

The nature of the folding done to forge a
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psycho835

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #19 on: (03:58:04/04-02-15) »
Ermmm... Wyrm? Something cut you off.

As for the rest of the post - I admit I don't know much about forging process - just that traditional katanas were supposed to be folded over and over again, presumably because of crappy quality of iron in Japan. And katana STILL shouldn't have that AP modifier. -2 (same as "sword") would be all right, but -3? We are talking about a normal sword optimized for cutting that somehow has the same penetration as a sword with monofilament edge, for Ghosts' sake!

Also, technically we are talking about stats for a "sword", without any specifics as to the type, which I suppose is part of the problem - every sword-like weapon is lumped in there. With a few exceptions, like rapier, claymore and katana. Katana (and possibly claymore) simply comes off as overpowered for no good reason.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #20 on: (05:40:05/04-02-15) »
Yes.  And this is in part because the sword that's optimized for cutting is going against fabrics that are - theoretically, at least - derived from kevlar, which is great against bullets or a punch or a baseball bat, but which sucks against an edge.  The weapon's armor penetration might be different if the game was still differentiating between ballistic (kevlar) and impact (plates); it would suffer against plates.  But when your armored clothing (all/light kevlar, few and small plates) uses the same essential rule as your riot gear (heavy plates backed up by heavy kevlar), something falls down.

Since the first printing of First edition, Shadowrun's katana has been an inch better than its counterpart sword - at the cost, by the way, of a bit of concealability.  (Tougher to conceal the curve.)  That's been the way it's been for all four editions, and I honestly don't see why it requires a change.  If you feel that way, then at your table by all means lump them all together into the same stat.  But it's been 'the katana is a bit better' for nigh 30 years, so ...
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Senko

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #21 on: (07:03:22/04-02-15) »
Personally I like to imagine that the Katana is the peak of the swordsmans art as its still a major part of the shadowrun japanese culture so they'd be doing their best to refine and keep it as the best of the best. In other words its got such an incredible AP because it is a monofilament blade its just that its advertised as a katana not a monofilament blade for the name branding. On the other hand the monofilament blade is just as good but its applied to any type of sword from claymores to machetes.

psycho835

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #22 on: (10:05:56/04-02-15) »
Personally I like to imagine that the Katana is the peak of the swordsmans art as its still a major part of the shadowrun japanese culture so they'd be doing their best to refine and keep it as the best of the best. In other words its got such an incredible AP because it is a monofilament blade its just that its advertised as a katana not a monofilament blade for the name branding. On the other hand the monofilament blade is just as good but its applied to any type of sword from claymores to machetes.

Sounds like something japanacorps would do back in their heyday. And then it just stayed on.
I really like that explanation.

Acolyte

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #23 on: (05:11:30/04-03-15) »
I tend to use the Sword stats for katanas and swords of all types, and use the katana stats for High Quality swords of all type, even katanas. A cheap knock off katana one gets in knick knack store shouldn't be better than any well made longsword, hence the sword stats, but a well made longsword gets the katana stats, as does a well made katana.

For a Seax, it depends on how big the thing is. They range from less than 6" to about 3 feet in length, historically, so either knife, combat knife, sword, or katana for stats, all depending on size and quality.

Thing is, the sword vs katana debate really stems from a couple of misperceptions that are still well ingrained despite more and more evidence to the contrary. One being "Medival european swords were just metal clubs with a sort of edge put on them" and the other being "Katanas are so sharp they can cut through anything, just like a lightsabre". Both are patently untrue.

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Senko

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #24 on: (05:45:03/04-03-15) »
Not really towards the end of their heydey in Eureope swords largely were largely metal clubs with an edge put on them. The reason being the greater accessability of metal in Eureope lead to a much higher amount of metal plate amount than was present in Japan and swords especially those like the Katana are not only mostly innefective against plate but actually get very badly damaged it used to hit it (more on that in a bit). The longsword and similar blades weren't actually intended to cut so much as to be hammered into the chinks in the armour as their primary for of attack so the edge wasn't that important. Then they got replaced by things like warhammers which either have a chisel type edge to dig in or a hammer head to do damage without needing to actually penetrate the armour. The Katana on the other hand was deisgned to be primarily used against lightly armoured or unarmoured foes and as such had a razors edge to slice and cut. Of course since the razor edge was so good at slicing through flesh it didn't have any real hardening against blows on hard surfaces (plate, tree's, etc) and would chip and blunt rapidly if used in such a manner. Hence the stereotype of club with an edge and cuts through anything. Both are rather an oversimplification but there is a very real grain of truth there. Not because the eastern swords were inherently better but because of differences in the development of arms and armour. In the west heavy plate required clubs and piercing weapons to combat it, in the east the lower amount of metal meant more unarmoured (to the same degree) troops and thus a razor edged blade that cuts.

The closest western sword to a katan is probably a cavalry saber with the curved edge for slicing strikes (in this case aimed downward at non-mounted troops) and a razor edge as opposiing forces no longer wore full plate. However it never saw any heavy development as a weapon of war due to the emergence of guns rendering it largely obsolete and so they tended more towards ornamentation than function because really if you were using them things had already gone badly wrong.

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #25 on: (06:02:17/04-03-15) »
... those being the extremes of the two Int4rw3b opinion ranges, yeah.  The weapons were designed to use the resources they had access to (Europe is more iron-rich than the Japanese islands) and the defenses they were attacking.  See my description of the various weapons above for their uses.  You're going to cut yourself on a sharp longsword, just like you can (and I have!) cut yourself on a perfect rectangular solid made of metal; the edges are clean and fine, which means sharp if you move it in the right direction.  When it comes to cutting, the katana has it over a longsword of similar quality, just because their construction is different.  (Though to be honest, it is notable that Damascus steel is very similar in many ways to the dual folded tamahagane of katana; it's just that the defenses, and so the design, of the longswords made from Damascus steel is different.
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psycho835

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #26 on: (06:07:27/04-03-15) »
I tend to use the Sword stats for katanas and swords of all types, and use the katana stats for High Quality swords of all type, even katanas. A cheap knock off katana one gets in knick knack store shouldn't be better than any well made longsword, hence the sword stats, but a well made longsword gets the katana stats, as does a well made katana.
Sounds good, but do you buf high-tech swords as well? I'd think that an Ares-brand monosword would be a quality weapon even discounting the monofilament edge.

Senko

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #27 on: (06:25:18/04-03-15) »
... those being the extremes of the two Int4rw3b opinion ranges, yeah.  The weapons were designed to use the resources they had access to (Europe is more iron-rich than the Japanese islands) and the defenses they were attacking.  See my description of the various weapons above for their uses.  You're going to cut yourself on a sharp longsword, just like you can (and I have!) cut yourself on a perfect rectangular solid made of metal; the edges are clean and fine, which means sharp if you move it in the right direction.  When it comes to cutting, the katana has it over a longsword of similar quality, just because their construction is different.  (Though to be honest, it is notable that Damascus steel is very similar in many ways to the dual folded tamahagane of katana; it's just that the defenses, and so the design, of the longswords made from Damascus steel is different.

Quite in terms of quality/craftmanship the best Katans and the best Damascan swords where pretty much equal its just the purpose they were made for that was different. I fully agree on the square of metal, I did metal shop for awhile and would cut myself on a semi-regular basis on the metal (not usually much worse than a paper cut but it did happen).

Acolyte

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #28 on: (06:38:10/04-03-15) »
Sounds good, but do you buf high-tech swords as well? I'd think that an Ares-brand monosword would be a quality weapon even discounting the monofilament edge.

I can see it, Just like the sidebar in the vehicles section that gives different brand names to vehicles of the same stats, I see no reason why other gear wouldn't be the same. Thing is, I don't really buff anything, I just use all the same stats including price, making the only difference cosmetic/style.

@ senko: Couple things. Ask any metal worker if they keep their chisels sharp or not. Medival sword were kept very sharp and for the same reason, they work better that way. In terms of the club idea, the balance point of swords moved towards the crossguard later in the medival period, not towards the tip. This makes thrusts easier, not chops. They handle nothing like clubs. One other point about this is that running into full plate armour would not be very common. Most people fought with much less compleate protection, mail being more common later and multiple layers of cloth being the most common in earlier periods. In terms of the katana, they have nice hard edges that can put up with armor fairly well, even metal armor - which did exist in japan. In fact Japanese armor made use of the same metal that went into a katana.

Thing to note that tends to keep the katana being the uberblade is that we have some very fine examples that have been kept very well. These are lethal works of art and beautiful, however for every one of these that got made thousands of lesser quality were made for poorer people and these generally either didn't survive or if they did, they aren't displayed very much. Musems have limited space for exibition so they show the most remarkable items. This is also why we get the impression about medieval armour. It's the outstanding full suits that we see, not the shirts made of 29 layers of linen faced with deerskin that we only have records of.

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« Last Edit: (06:54:19/04-03-15) by Acolyte »

Angelone

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Re: Vibrosword vs Monosword
« Reply #29 on: (11:26:03/04-03-15) »
I prefer a messer; grosse, lange, or krieg for rl swords.

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