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Regeneration vs. Drain?

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FastJack

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« Reply #15 on: <11-15-10/0227:48> »
Before this turns into something bigger, everyone take a deep breath.

Muspellsheimr, you might be well known over on Dumpshock, but there's a lot of people here that don't know you. Treating everyone like they SHOULD know you may come across as arrogantly superior. You don't have a rep here, don't start off on a bad foot.

Gun, I don't think he was purposely trying to "reign" his knowledge over you, nor that he was trying to sound snippy with you. Let's just chalk up to an old hand coming to a new group and not introducing himself nor his experience with the game before jumping in on a conversation.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #16 on: <11-15-10/0238:11> »
I don't think he was trying to "reign" his knowledge over me, I think he was expecting someone to know him who had never met him before.  I also feel he believes a little too much in himself.

Especially since, before SR4A ever came into existence, my statement was absolutely true.  Even in 4th edition, there was nothing to contradict it.  On page 178, there is a single sentence of about 16 words that put this to rest, in a 370+ page book.  I didn't notice this one small change and I got, after being corrected with appropriate quotes and page numbers and backing off from my previous position, a rant about how someone is almost perfect and should never be questioned.

I sincerely hope this was not his tone over at Dumpshock, because it does not bode well for his rep here from others who have also never laid eyes on a post of his before.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #17 on: <11-15-10/0251:55> »
The problem with "skimming" SR4A is that there were SO many changes and alterations it could almost be Shadowrun 5th Edition.

I mean, seriously, unless you've specifically looked in the SR4A rules to confirm it, it's a bad idea to just assume what you know from the older SR4 rules holds.




-k

Mäx

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« Reply #18 on: <11-15-10/0416:04> »
I don't think he was trying to "reign" his knowledge over me, I think he was expecting someone to know him who had never met him before.  I also feel he believes a little too much in himself.

Especially since, before SR4A ever came into existence, my statement was absolutely true.  Even in 4th edition, there was nothing to contradict it.  On page 178, there is a single sentence of about 16 words that put this to rest, in a 370+ page book.  I didn't notice this one small change and I got, after being corrected with appropriate quotes and page numbers and backing off from my previous position, a rant about how someone is almost perfect and should never be questioned.
Reshecking the rules to make sure your right is just common courtecy think to do before claiming someone else is wrong.
When someone post what the rules are, contradicting them without making sure is just rude.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Chaemera

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« Reply #19 on: <11-15-10/0644:18> »
Even in 4th edition, there was nothing to contradict it.

No magical healing of drain has always been the RAW in SR4 been a part of SR4 prior to SR4A, specifically:

Quote from:  SR4[u
, Corrected Fifth Printing[/u], pg. 167, Drain]
Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means such as sorcery or spirit powers.

I'm not familiar with previous editions, so I can't confirm that the rule of "no magical healing of drain" is a new one. However, if it is, I agree with Gun Nut that it should have more attention than one sentence at the end of the description of Drain.

Page 52 of SR4 has a side-bar discussing major changes between SR3 and SR4. I would have liked to see a similar bar at the start of each chapter, it wouldn't be that large a footprint in a massive book.

EDITED to correct poor word choice pointed out by Mäx.
« Last Edit: <11-15-10/1734:00> by Chaemera »
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Mäx

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« Reply #20 on: <11-15-10/0824:47> »
Even in 4th edition, there was nothing to contradict it.

No magical healing of drain has always been the RAW in SR4, specifically:

Quote from:  SR4, pg. 167, Drain
Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means such as sorcery or spirit powers.
Actually it hasn't allways been RAW in SR4, your quoting from newer then first printing corebook.
That sentence is added in in one of the erratas, can't tell witch one as they only have the newest up on the site.
Ofcource that isn't exactly point for gun nuts favor, as "i only skimmed the Anniversary edition" is atleast understandable, "I don't read errata" not so much.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #21 on: <11-15-10/0954:16> »
I have the first printing of the 4th edition, which doesn't include that line.

I've got the errata for all the books, but unless something comes up in game that specifically calls for that kind of information then I don't bother checking.  For example, I had actually forgotten that the newest form of the regeneration power can heal stun damage.  In that case my first statement about not healing stun damage was wrong.

Regeneration has gotten some serious changes throughout the editions (I'm using this as an example).  Did I read each book cover to cover to see each change?  Not really, I skimmed through each one, stopping to focus only on things that were relevant to the game I was running.  Occasionally, my players would run into something with regeneration, and that was important to know about, so I know how it changed through the editions.  In the first and second editions, if you didn't outright kill the thing with regeneration (taking it to Deadly damage and beyond, and it rolling a 1 to fail the regenration check) then at the end of the Combat Turn ALL DAMAGE WAS REMOVED.  This started changing in the third edition, making it heal a certain amount of damage per combat turn (something like its Essence or Magic rating in boxes) and making it more killable (still rolled to see if it outright died, though).  This damage included any Physical damage from drain, and overcasting a spell for physical damage instead of stun damage was a viable, and even suggested, tactic for any spellcaster, let alone one with regeneration.

The point I'm making about all this is that I have played, and run, every single edition of SR since its release in 1989.  As new rules come out, I only look at the things that are specifically relevant to the game I'm running (decking/hacking has changed so much with each edition I have to read the chapter anew each time).  This sometimes means that, if I don't notice any large changes as I peruse the chapters, then I assume that it is the same as previous editions.  This is a timesaver on my part, and also introduces error to my knowledge base (details, its all in the details).  It means that I sometimes, in error, I state things as fact.  My shelves are bursting with SR rulebooks and sourcebooks, so I sometimes take for granted the knowledge I have on the subject.

The best thing that anyone can do in such a situationis the same as what Chaemera did:  quote the page number for me to see the detail.  As the old man around here, my information is vast, but not necessarily up to date.  Politely point out where I was wrong, and I'll back off.  Get rude, and I'll dig in.
There is no overkill.

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Chaemera

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« Reply #22 on: <11-15-10/1730:20> »
Even in 4th edition, there was nothing to contradict it.

No magical healing of drain has always been the RAW in SR4, specifically:

Quote from:  SR4, pg. 167, Drain
Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means such as sorcery or spirit powers.
Actually it hasn't allways been RAW in SR4, your quoting from newer then first printing corebook.
That sentence is added in in one of the erratas, can't tell witch one as they only have the newest up on the site.
Ofcource that isn't exactly point for gun nuts favor, as "i only skimmed the Anniversary edition" is atleast understandable, "I don't read errata" not so much.

Fair enough, I should have said "was RAW before SR4A", didn't think to consider which printing of base-SR4 I had. Mea culpa.
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Muspellsheimr

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« Reply #23 on: <11-16-10/1331:16> »
I was not lording my superiority. I was explaining how I work for future use, based on past experience.

Most often, I will not provide a quote because I am away from books, and so cannot provide an exact quote or page reference.

I often cannot provide a quote later for someone who has questioned me, as I rarely visit the forums anymore & often will not even be aware of it.



Another thing to note about me - if I claim something is Rules as Written, additional emphasis is placed on as Written. I do not care how blatantly obvious the intent of a rule is. I do not care if developer input or FAQ has 'clarified' it. I am talking about the written functionality of the rule regarding the most recent printing/errata.

I will often include developer clarifications (if any) to the intended functionality, but that does not in itself change RAW.

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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #24 on: <11-16-10/1424:21> »
This still implies that your word is infallible even without quoting a page number for reference.  This is the attitude I had a problem with.  If you had said something to the effect of "I can get the page for you later, I'm not near the books right now" that would have been more than acceptable (who has the books with them all the time?).

You didn't do that.  You complained that I should know that you are correct as a standard courtesy.  This comes across as very, very arrogant, and is entirely the wrong message one should send.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Mordoyh

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« Reply #25 on: <11-16-10/1729:52> »
After revisiting my thread and seeing the hostility being passed around, I'm locking my thread.  I will mention on Catalyst game site FAQ it definitively states in clear language and in no uncertain terms that Regeneration cannot heal drain and that drain is considered magical damage.  For me, this clarification in the FAQ overrides RAW as it is from the developers.

Thanks to all who provided intelligent discourse.