Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: 忍 on <03-12-17/1810:42>
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If a character with Regen takes damage from magic then later takes nonmagical damage, can the Regen check heal all of it or just the nonmagical damage?
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Just the nonmagical damage. Taking a wound from another source does not suddenly allow previously un-regeneratable wounds to be able to be regenerated.
If you are frequently running into issues where you need to keep track of which damage can be healed by different means, I suggest using different marks on your damage track based on what sort of damage it is. For instance, using a single slash ( / ) vs an x ( X ).
So, for example, a character with regeneration takes magical damage (can't be regenerated), and marks the damage with X's to indicate that it can't be regenerated. Then later, takes a bullet wound, and marks that with just single slashes to indicate it can be regenerated. At the end of the combat turn, after the regeneration test is made, the character can only heal up the boxes without X's.
You don't so much need to mark the individual wounds, just keep track of how much damage is from which sources, so I recommend keeping all of the damage marks such that the 'non-healable' damage is always marked as the first damage on the track. Don't change the total damage, just make sure you keep track of it in an organized manner. So, if you take 3 from a bullet, 2 from magic, then 3 from a bullet, you would have a total of 8 boxes marked, the first two would be X's and the rest slashes.
So, in the more likely scenario, with Magicians that regularly take drain (which can't be healed except through natural rest), you would see this for marking the drain damage.
Magician, already has 1 damage taken from drain.
( X )( )( )
( )( )( )
( )( )( )
( )( )
takes a bullet for 3 damage, and marks these boxes with a slash,
( X )( / )( / )
( / )( )( )
( )( )( )
( )( )
then casts a spell and takes 2 more damage from the drain. The magician would mark two more boxes as damaged, and make sure the two more boxes are marked with an "X" at the start of the damage track.
( X )( X )( X )
( / )( / )( / )
( )( )( )
( )( )
Finally, you can also do this to indicate that you've already attempted healing. After first aid and the Heal spell has been applied, mark all the boxes remaining with the hard X to indicate nothing else can be healed except from rest.
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Mucho gracias :)
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Makes sense to me as interesting as the idea of healing a magical burn by hacking the charred flesh out and letting your natural healing take over is it'd get mechanically unwieldy/broken.
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Just a reminder to anyone reading this that nonmagical damage to the head and spine also bypasses regeneration.
So next time you fight a vampire, before you lament having forgotten your holy water and wooden stakes, just remember to take a -4 for Called Shot (Vitals) and specify you're going for headshots.
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Eh, I think I'll just stick to my conventional strategy of Hi-Ex grenades and large caliber APDS at full auto. They can't regenerate if they're just a big crimson stain on the floor and wall.....and ceiling.
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Just a reminder to anyone reading this that nonmagical damage to the head and spine also bypasses regeneration.
So next time you fight a vampire, before you lament having forgotten your holy water and wooden stakes, just remember to take a -4 for Called Shot (Vitals) and specify you're going for headshots.
Headshot is a -10...
just saying.
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What he's going for is the fact that Called Shot: Vitals says 'brain', and regeneration says 'brain'.
I'm a little leery of anyone that suggests a +2 to damage should also allow you to bypass regen entirely.
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Headshot is a -10...
just saying.
The rule I'm looking at is Called Shot(Vitals)in 5e core. It's a -4 like all the other called shots in the 5e core book.
What he's going for is the fact that Called Shot: Vitals says 'brain', and regeneration says 'brain'.
I'm a little leery of anyone that suggests a +2 to damage should also allow you to bypass regen entirely.
I feel like that was exactly the intention. So that muggles can still have some means of protecting themselves. It specifically mentions "for example, a called shot to the head" in the text of the Regeneration power as an example that bypasses it.
Regeneration can’t heal everything. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, a called shot to the head) can’t be healed this way
Calling a shot to increase damage means the shooter is aiming for a particularly vital area of the body, such as the brain, heart, or major arteries.
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This topic has been discussed a few times before, most recently that I can remember during a conversation about Shapeshifters, HERE (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21111.0)
There seems to be two major stances on this:
1) Since Called Shot (vitals) mentions the brain as one of the locations that is a potential target, you can use Called Shot (Vitals) to aim for the brain and therefore bypass Regeneration.
2) The purpose of Called Shot (Vitals) is to increase damage by +2, not to bypass Regeneration. Being able to overwhelm Regeneration at the "cost" of a +2 damage Called Shot doesn't seem to be balanced.
Both arguments have valid points, but I tend to agree with the standpoint that +2 damage and bypassing regeneration with the same Called Shot is a little odd, possibly even unbalanced. The only thing I think I can add (to what I've already said in the previous discussions) is that the way hits/damage is tracked is all abstracted. Shadowrun doesn't actually use hit locations (for the most part), so my observation is that the Called Shot: Vitals works the same way. It is meant to be "you're aiming for a more vulnerable area, so you get +2 damage" not, pick a location from this list, that's what you're hitting. To me, it begs the question, why could you specify Called Shot: Vitals (head) and get that extra effect, but don't get anything extra for a Called Shot: Vitals (heart)? The answer (in my head) is that you don't get to specify that your Vitals Called Shot is to the head, it doesn't guarantee that headshot-ness.
My quick-and-dirty solution is to simply allow Called Shot (head) as its own Called Shot (I mention one possibility in that Shapeshifters thread). Another way to do it is to work it like a normal Called Shot from the Core Rules, -4 penalty for the bonus of bypassing regeneration. I would probably allow it to be used with Called Shot (vitals) to still get the +2 damage, but that would be for the full -8 penalty.
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There really isn't a RAW answer... and like many things, there's no official clarification.
I'm with the -10 since eye/ears/genitals is -10 in R&G.
Without the almighty stepping down and writing it in stone, its a table preference thing I guess.
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Wrong,
RAW is that a Vitals Shot is a shot to the brain or heart, RAW is that a shot to the Brain or Spine won't be regenerated
Everything else is (a maybe justified) house rule.
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Sure, RAW is that a Called Shot to the Vitals is a hit to somewhere like the brain, heart, or a major artery. Where it hits precisely isn't up to the player, but the GM. Unlike the Called Shots to specific locations introduced in Run & Gun, other attacks are abstracted and don't hit specific locations.
So nothing (in the rules) keeps a GM from making all those Called Shot: Vitals attacks keep hitting the target in the carotid or femoral arteries. Yep, causes massive damage from the blood-loss. The Called Shot: Vitals doesn't guarantee a hit that stops regeneration.
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I have a problem with that explanation because it presumes
a) Hitting a vital area is somehow random yet your are going to greater effort to aim not at center mass but at a specific spot on the body. Both from a narrative as well as a simulationist point of view that is mutually exclusive
b) your GM is a dick thinking it's ok to take away an already more difficult mundane option while magic types need no effort whatsoever to stop regeneration.
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Regeneration is quite explicit in saying "a called shot to the head" bypasses it. That is a reference to Called Shot(Vitals), which itself mentions the brain as a possible target. There is no ambiguity there.
Called Shot(Vitals) says "the shooter is aiming for a particularly vital area of the body". The vital area is singular, and is the shooter's choice because it's where he's pointing his gun. If a shooter is going for a headshot (say because he's fighting a vampire and knows that's the only way he can kill it and survive), then it's clear what will happen: either the shooter will either hit the vampire's head or miss. It won't magically re-aim his gun at a leg artery.
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Regeneration is quite explicit in saying "a called shot to the head" bypasses it. That is a reference to Called Shot(Vitals), which itself mentions the brain as a possible target. There is no ambiguity there.
Called Shot(Vitals) says "the shooter is aiming for a particularly vital area of the body". The vital area is singular, and is the shooter's choice because it's where he's pointing his gun. If a shooter is going for a headshot (say because he's fighting a vampire and knows that's the only way he can kill it and survive), then it's clear what will happen: either the shooter will either hit the vampire's head or miss. It won't magically re-aim his gun at a leg artery.
You are aware, yes, that the carotid artery is in the throat (which is a valid location of the head if you are not going to get more specific, as the chart in R&G does) that DOES NOT hit the actual brain, yes? As is a lof ot facial structure. I have seen people shot with a head crosssection (through the jaw or cheekbones), or a bullet impact the skull and slideto facial structure, and not have one bit of brain trauma at all... So... Head shot does not equal Brain Shot.
Just wanted to point that out.
I would use the more specific taregeting in R&G, personally.
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I would use the more specific taregeting in R&G, personally.
I would go with that, if those rules included hit locations for "brain" or "head". But they omit most of the areas mentioned in Called Shot(Vitals) (Brain, heart, major arteries), so I don't think they're intended to supersede the rules for Called Shot(Vitals).
The carotid artery is mentioned under the "neck" shot in R&G. I'm not a biologist, so I'm not quite sure how you interpret Called Shot(Neck) to be a headshot.
If we need to split hairs between headshots and brain-shots, sure. The called shot says you can specify the brain. I have been calling it a headshot for the sake of simplicity and ease-of-understanding. Should we call it Called Shot(Brain or Spine) when we mean to have it bypass regeneration? Perhaps Called Shot(Central Nervous System)?
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I would use the more specific taregeting in R&G, personally.
I would go with that, if those rules included hit locations for "brain" or "head". But they omit most of the areas mentioned in Called Shot(Vitals) (Brain, heart, major arteries), so I don't think they're intended to supersede the rules for Called Shot(Vitals).
The carotid artery is mentioned under the "neck" shot in R&G. I'm not a biologist, so I'm not quite sure how you interpret Called Shot(Neck) to be a headshot.
If we need to split hairs between headshots and brain-shots, sure. The called shot says you can specify the brain. I have been calling it a headshot for the sake of simplicity and ease-of-understanding. Should we call it Called Shot(Brain or Spine) when we mean to have it bypass regeneration? Perhaps Called Shot(Central Nervous System)?
If you are using a -4 for the Head SHot from Main Book, then hitting the neck is valid, as there is not a more specific targeting for such in Main book (Pretty sure Throat is just as Vital as Heart, Brain, etc)...
Pretty sure it would be easy to use the chart in R&G to generate appropriate modifiers... I think that -4 is not enough for what it is doing... Head Shot (-4) and Brain Shot (-4) are not equal in my book.
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I would beg to differ as the rules SPECIFICALLY say a called shot to the head is enough.
See actual printed text below.
"Regeneration can’t heal everything. Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, a called shot to the head) can’t be healed this way."
Moreover you'll note its EITHER brain OR spinal cord.
So it's not as precise as shooting your brain, neck shot could work fine considering that's where your spinal cord runs.
But the 100% inarguable statement is "for example, a called shot to the head".
As ever you are free to houserule whatever you like, it's just not RAW nor RAI.
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There is no Called Shot: Head
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Core rule book: Page 178
Called Shot
Sometimes we want our shots to count a little bit extra.
Any time a character wants to make a Called Shots
(p. 195) apply this modifier. Called Shots also require
a Free Action to perform along with their basic attack
action (p. 163).
Page 196
Vitals: Standard ranged attacks are assumed to be
aiming center mass (human torso, car engine, etc.) to
allow for maximum chance to hit while also focusing
on vital areas for damage. Calling a shot to increase
damage means the shooter is aiming for a particularly
vital area of the body, such as the brain, heart, or major
arteries. These areas, when struck, tend to cause more
serious wounds but they are smaller areas and harder to
hit. Targeting a vital spot with a called shot gives you an
extra +2 DV on the attack
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As Reaver (and others, including myself in other threads) has pointed out Called Shot: Vitals is the one you want to use.
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I didn't have Run &Gun when I wrote the Regeneration power. Those referring to Called Shot (Vitals) have it absolutely correct; the intent was for that to allow you to bypass Regeneration at the expense of the +2 to damage. Signals got crossed and the wording wasn't tightened up. My fault.
I'm getting that dealt within errata. Not sure when it'll see the light of day, because we're behind, but it's being addressed.
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I didn't have Run &Gun when I wrote the Regeneration power. Those referring to Called Shot (Vitals) have it absolutely correct; the intent was for that to allow you to bypass Regeneration at the expense of the +2 to damage. Signals got crossed and the wording wasn't tightened up. My fault.
So, to clarify, the original intent was for Called Shot (Vitals) to give +2 damage OR bypass regeneration. right?
Thanks Patrick, this is totally how I'll run this at my table from now on (even if it doesn't make it into the errata any time soon). That's basically what I suggested earlier.
[A] way to do it is to work it like a normal Called Shot from the Core Rules, -4 penalty for the bonus of bypassing regeneration. I would probably allow it to be used with Called Shot (vitals) to still get the +2 damage, but that would be for the full -8 penalty.
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I didn't have Run &Gun when I wrote the Regeneration power. Those referring to Called Shot (Vitals) have it absolutely correct; the intent was for that to allow you to bypass Regeneration at the expense of the +2 to damage. Signals got crossed and the wording wasn't tightened up. My fault.
I'm getting that dealt within errata. Not sure when it'll see the light of day, because we're behind, but it's being addressed.
Thank you for the clarification. It means a lot to me when one of the writers can come out and say what the intent was. I look forward to seeing this in an errata someday.
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So the intent is that shooting the brain to bypass regeneration is -4 but shooting the gut is -6.
Not to mention all the other areas that are -8 or -10.
Yeah, seems equitable.
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So the intent is that shooting the brain to bypass regeneration is -4 but shooting the gut is -6.
Not to mention all the other areas that are -8 or -10.
Yeah, seems equitable.
Setting aside what I assume is sarcasm (because yes, that statement can be read in a positive tone to mean that you are completely happy with the stated intent). As far as equal penalties for equal results goes, the specific location called shots give a lot more options to the shooter for results. Each of those shots give 2-3 choices for effects, and all of them are pretty significant effects.
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To be honest, the called shots in R&G are universally pretty crap. Even at half the penalty I'd avoid using them.
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To be honest, the called shots in R&G are universally pretty crap. Even at half the penalty I'd avoid using them.
no soft sarcasm in the classroom with this one.
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Opinions aside it seems Called Shot: Vitals allows either +2DV or damage that can't be regenerated.
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To be honest, the called shots in R&G are universally pretty crap. Even at half the penalty I'd avoid using them.
I actually have two stories that made good use of the the location Called Shots, one funny, the other tactically effective.
The tactical use actually was told me just last night. The team was being attacked by a powerful awakened individual wielding a sword. The team Sniper took the first attack to Called Shot for the Thigh, and applied the Winded effect. Winded makes it so that the target can't take Complex Actions for a set number of combat turns. So the melee weapon becomes useless as they can't make any attacks with it.
The more humorous story: We had a slight misunderstanding, and one of the magicians became upset (basically, man makes a crude joke, woman reacts harshly) and cast Levitate on a teammate (the one who said the crude comment). Presumably, this was the equivalent of pushing him away, but with Magic. In turn, however, he gets startled, because now he's floating and can't get down. So the teammate draws his pistol, and shoots her in the foot. He was able to stay collected enough to aim for a non-vital area. The rest of the team jumped in afterward and separated the two and calmed things down, but still kind of funny with the series of escalations. It was literally the sort of comment that could have been responded to with a slap across the face ("how dare you" *slap*), she just decided to resort to magic instead.
There are definitely times and uses for the Called Shots. Honestly, at my weekly table, few of my players ever use Called Shots at all, let alone the extra ones in Run & Gun.
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Those referring to Called Shot (Vitals) have it absolutely correct; the intent was for that to allow you to bypass Regeneration at the expense of the +2 to damage. Signals got crossed and the wording wasn't tightened up. My fault.
So, to clarify, the original intent was for Called Shot (Vitals) to give +2 damage OR bypass regeneration. right?
Correct.
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The more humorous story: We had a slight misunderstanding, and one of the magicians became upset (basically, man makes a crude joke, woman reacts harshly) and cast Levitate on a teammate (the one who said the crude comment). Presumably, this was the equivalent of pushing him away, but with Magic. In turn, however, he gets startled, because now he's floating and can't get down. So the teammate draws his pistol, and shoots her in the foot. He was able to stay collected enough to aim for a non-vital area. The rest of the team jumped in afterward and separated the two and calmed things down, but still kind of funny with the series of escalations. It was literally the sort of comment that could have been responded to with a slap across the face ("how dare you" *slap*), she just decided to resort to magic instead.
What, he didn't just whip out his submachine and full auto her with gel rounds? No wonder she thinks she can just push him around like that.
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Yeah, doing trick shots is all very well (that's why there is such a called shot), but if I want an enemy stopped, I just stun or kill them.
Tactically, a disarm (maybe with finger popper) would have been the better choice to deal with a sword swinger.
If you want to stop a magic user shooting their foot will only enrage them. Split the damage would be the better choice if you don't want to kill them (or use non-lethal ammo)
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With disarm (blast out of hands, technically), they just go back and pick up the weapon again. Being winded means they literally can't attack.
The Shot to the foot does a maximum of 1 damage, the goal of the shot was to startle, not wound. Splitting the damage still does a pretty decent amount of damage.
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Yeah, doing trick shots is all very well (that's why there is such a called shot), but if I want an enemy stopped, I just stun or kill them.
Tactically, a disarm (maybe with finger popper) would have been the better choice to deal with a sword swinger.
If you want to stop a magic user shooting their foot will only enrage them. Split the damage would be the better choice if you don't want to kill them (or use non-lethal ammo)
I always handled the Called Shots from R&G as something cool characters can do if the situation fits it or they just want to show off.
It also gives specific Rules to situations, you have someone who got a wounded arm, now you can just look at a specific rule to handle it.
But yeah simply shooting someone will always be more effective, seems pretty accurate to real life actually(and pretty much most other games)
Also let's face it, if some of the shoots were actually "better" then every sam with his 20+ Dice would just use those(kinda how everyone uses "Vitals" which is already powerful enough).